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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show on Martin

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Wilshire host and we have a great show

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for you this evening we have first of

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all Alejandro Rojas is going to be

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joining us for some UFO updates then we

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have Steven Bassett and he's going to be

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talking about something he is up to in

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Washington DC and will be will be

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talking all about that I have I have a

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special connection with Steve Bassett

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because you know as you know I for a

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long time listeners I have 300 70

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some-odd shows up and Steven Bassett was

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show number one I reached out to a

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number of people when I wanted to start

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this podcast and no one paid attention

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to me and Steven said sure I'll be on

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your show no problem so I always I

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always have like I said a special place

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in my heart for Steve Bassett and he's

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welcome on my show any time and he'll be

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coming up right after the right after

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the news we do have a blog as usual over

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at podcast UFO calm I'll tell you that

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in just a second but you can also go

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over there if you would like to support

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the show and you know do check out the

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weekly blogs that we have posted there

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by Charles Lear he does a great job and

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this one was a one I had actually never

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heard of before it's called the Zen

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frederick UFO case in in italy and so

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it's really interesting and checked that

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out and I think that might be it I want

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to thank Peggy that helps me over at the

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Facebook page check that out we have new

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stories up there every single day not

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always on the weekend but sometimes and

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so check that out over there

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I guess that's enough for me Alejandro

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how are you I'm doing well I am actually

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have my good mic set up so I'm not doing

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you know just the laptop camera and the

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Apple ear sets anymore so hopefully yes

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the sound and video is better for you

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all yeah

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and you are are you in

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new location I am yeah yeah that's all

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you're gonna say about that that's all I

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gotta say about it's west of here and

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mean that's that's all we'll say in an

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undisclosed location undisclosed

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location you can see that from the

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background it's obviously got to be a

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spacecraft of some sort I think it is

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yeah we'll start that conspiracy so I

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mean I'm supposed to be here to talk

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about UFO news right yeah but I don't

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really have much oh you know what's kind

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of funny is most of the news out there

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is about what we've talked about the

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last few weeks the army's project with

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to the stars and then also the the navy

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talking confirming that those videos

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were real something i feel they already

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told us really

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back in December 2017 with New York

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Times but that's still making some

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headlines so those are the big headlines

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kind of out there which is is

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interesting that you know even right now

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if you google UFO news that's mostly

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what you're gonna find one cool piece

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though is that army times.com also did

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an article on this so that's pretty

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interesting too so yeah just to catch

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people up I'm sure people have already

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heard you know - the starts gonna work

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with the army of all people with that

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you know examining some of these what

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are being labeled metamaterials there's

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probably a better term I think that

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people could use really they're kind of

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maybe you ap material might be accurate

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because they're material that you know

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allegedly comes from unidentified aerial

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phenomena so doesn't that seem right you

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ap material seems like it would be

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better than meta material which is so

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vague a term well yeah I I think now was

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this what is considered arts parts is

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that do we know the origin of these

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these materials we don't know the origin

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of all of the material

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I you know who did a great and Richard

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Dolan did an analysis of what materials

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they probably are at the International

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UFO Congress so you could get that DVD

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at UFO Congress comm and it'll be posted

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on the videos on demand soon but yeah

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Richard Dolan you did a great talk on

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that but yeah arts parts is one of those

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pieces but just one of many or of

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several supposedly and we don't know the

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origins of all of them so hopefully

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we'll find that out in time and that

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will be really interesting you know some

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people are a little concerned if you're

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partnering up with the Army you know

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could it be potentially that we won't be

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getting information and for both from

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what I understand that you know the

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intentions are to get the information

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out to people as soon as they can but

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the army does have if they're

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participating in the project then they

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have say as to when that will come out

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and that's got some people concerned no

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doubt but well I think it's a you know

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it's a two-way street with them because

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when I read through the agreement you

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know it basically said that both sides

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have to get to give conceits a written

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permission to share anything and within

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30 days of sharing so both sides have to

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agree right right so which is going to

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be the nature of these sort of things

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even if it wasn't the army and if it was

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another organization let's say you know

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it was Ball Aerospace or somebody like

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that

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or you know Lockheed or something and

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probably be similar so so I think that's

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something to consider and I think you

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know what I would say is it's

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interesting to watch all of this because

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what we're seeing is kind of the

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mainstreaming of the topic you know if

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which is extraordinary to be able to see

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this I feel you know having been in this

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I and I don't know how you feel but you

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know we're seeing what would happen when

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mainstream institutions start to kind of

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tackle this issue and how would they do

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it

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and you know many of us have been

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discussing these sort of things for a

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while what would happen how would this

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work and some of those people that have

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already you know been in this space such

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as people who are scientists or people

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who are in the government people like

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John Alexander let's say and Nick Pope

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who have experience with some of this

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sort of thing having worked in the

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government and paranormal studies so I

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think that's essentially what we're

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seeing is how the mainstream handles it

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and it's kind of interesting that so far

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first we've seen the military becoming

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so open about all of this and willing to

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participate and you know I think some

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might feel it's them getting in front of

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things which i think is always wise of

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any organization you know when you

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foresee that you're gonna be challenged

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with questions or information it's best

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to be proactive and to get involved so

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that you can you know be seen in a

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positive proactive light and so we we've

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seen that from the Navy and from now the

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army as far as results and how will that

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work we'll have to see will it become

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another kind of project Bluebook where

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which had major PR problems you know at

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the beginning they were pretty open and

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it was a very positive sort of project

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and what happened well the first

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conclusion they came to was it could be

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aliens you know leadership didn't like

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that and things then turned did a total

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180 and they debunked and for the next

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couple of years they got to be seen as a

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waste of time as you know if you have a

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sighting don't go to Project Blue Book

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and repel who started Project Blue Book

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even said you know he talked to

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scientists and that was their sentiment

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that you're just gonna debunk you don't

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really have an interest in this topic

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because they so wanted to debunk

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everything after that first project sign

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report and so that was a challenge of

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repel' is to try to reboot then and to

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create a public you know facing

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organization with credibility but that

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was difficult to do when he talked about

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19:52 in washington DC and you know UFOs

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flying over and Bluebook even able to

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essentially take over the the control

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tower during one of these incidents what

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happened well the army sent out you know

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general Samford who gave us an answer a

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prosaic answer that it was just weather

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inversions in radars but that was BS as

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rappelled says they didn't even check

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with us as to what our investigation was

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because we had already ruled that out

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they weren't interested in you know the

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actual facts of the investigation they

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were just interested in telling the

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public something now in that same press

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conference though you know general

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Samford said that they do receive

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incredible sightings from from you know

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incredible resources Rikka how he said

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it but essentially very credible people

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so I think that's something to look at

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going forward how is the army going to

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handle it now I don't believe that to

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the stars

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personally for my conversations with

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people into the stars that they would

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want to be a Hynek you know want to be

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someone to explain away cases for the

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army I think they're genuinely

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interested certainly we've heard from

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Tom that he's very convinced that you

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know some of these things come from

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elsewhere so we'll see what happens I

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think it's going to be a tricky

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relationship between the army and to the

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stars and it'll be a tricky relationship

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between the public and both of those

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entities as well as they kind of figure

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out you know how to maneuver around all

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of this so it ought to be interesting

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and then interesting for the board fork

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yeah yeah we haven't really heard from

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the scientific community very much we've

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heard from some of the Talking Heads

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neil degrasse tyson michio kaku

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Bill Nye the Science Guy Seth Shostak

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and of course you had him on the show

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the most recent interview and the latter

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you know being more skeptical whereas

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neil degrasse tyson and especially

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Michio Kaku being much more positive

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about the whole idea of investigating

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all of this stuff so I think that's

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interesting too that just shows that at

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least the Talking Heads for science out

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there are on the fence still

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but considering it which is a lot more

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than what we've seen in the past where

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they really haven't considered yet

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anymore and I think that they're gonna

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have more and more pressure just like

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the pressure you put on cha stack he's

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got to confront this issue in a more

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educated manner than he has and you

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pointed that out and I think Bill Nye is

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gonna have to do the same because they

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will face challenges and thus far in my

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humble opinion Bill Nye and szostak have

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not demonstrated that they're educated

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on the issue and their conclusions have

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been based off of the poor and small

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amounts of information they have when

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they seem kind of angry about it well

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anyway they do they're forced into the

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position I think Shah stack for years

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has tried to avoid it because of course

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they had a real struggle they were into

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the Stars position you know twenty

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thirty years ago when they were fighting

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for legitimacy when people thought what

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said he was doing with silly looking for

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aliens things have changed so much for

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them and now you know even NASA arguably

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is it largely a SETI organization you

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know looking for extraterrestrial life

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out there maybe not intelligence yet but

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they're looking for microbes and and to

286
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such and that's a major part of their

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program so things have changed quite a

288
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bit and how did they change for SETI

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said he had to be hypersensitive about

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being seen as scientific so you can see

291
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how they would be a little more skittish

292
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too attaching themselves to something

293
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that may seem more fringe and so they're

294
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being careful about it but they can't

295
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ignore it and they can't be I think

296
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careful to the point where they are

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being you know obviously unscientific

298
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about things and really in my humble

299
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opinion I think Shah says should educate

300
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himself on the matter which she probably

301
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doesn't want to be forced into doing but

302
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at some point he's gonna have to give

303
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some more educated answers I think and

304
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that'll be fun to see them challenged

305
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,339
and to see this all evolved that's right

306
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well thank you we went a little bit over

307
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time and I gotta get Steve in here

308
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thanks so much I'll I'll talk to you

309
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,269
next week

310
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thank you all right I have a good one

311
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all right everyone mine

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my next guest paradigm research group is

313
00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:04,330
Steven Bassett and Steve and welcome to

314
00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:09,520
the show yeah Martin I heard the intro

315
00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:11,620
you had with Alejandro and and your

316
00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:13,540
viewers should know that he's in witness

317
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:17,590
protection okay good to know

318
00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:19,330
that's where he is he's in witness

319
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protection program has been for some

320
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:21,510
time

321
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hey you can you turn your camera on

322
00:14:27,780 --> 00:14:25,870
Steve you want me to turn the camera

323
00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:27,790
yeah if you can yeah okay all right

324
00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:29,560
skill shot here see what happened

325
00:14:35,970 --> 00:14:31,870
Steve so why don't you uh memories along

326
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a little back there you go

327
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welcome to the show and you know I have

328
00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:41,770
said I say that on the show almost every

329
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:43,660
week now because I actually can see

330
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through analytics and things like that I

331
00:14:50,850 --> 00:14:47,710
have new people listening to the show

332
00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:50,860
all the time someone may not know who

333
00:14:54,510 --> 00:14:52,600
you are quickly in a nutshell can you go

334
00:14:56,820 --> 00:14:54,520
over that and this tell us what you're

335
00:14:58,740 --> 00:14:56,830
up to something new so let's first of

336
00:15:03,560 --> 00:14:58,750
all just introduce yourself to the new

337
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listener if you would yeah I'm a the

338
00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:05,800
executive director of paradigm research

339
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group which was formed in 96 to pursue

340
00:15:14,250 --> 00:15:11,080
the political resolution not the

341
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:14,260
scientific resolution but the political

342
00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:15,490
resolution of the extra-terrestrial

343
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:19,300
issue I I did this because if I come to

344
00:15:26,070 --> 00:15:22,890
to conclude the problem was not science

345
00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:26,080
even by 96 there was more than enough

346
00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:27,670
science to prove the extraterrestrial

347
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:30,790
present so what was the problem well the

348
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:32,530
problem was it was a political decision

349
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,230
part of government going all the way

350
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:37,600
back to the late 40s early 1950s that

351
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:40,090
this issue would be suppressed embargo

352
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:43,920
as I like to call it denied undermined

353
00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:46,570
misinformation disinformation for

354
00:15:51,390 --> 00:15:48,670
national security reasons as a legal

355
00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:51,400
national security policy so essentially

356
00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:53,380
the most profound information probably

357
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:55,320
in the history of the human race was

358
00:16:00,420 --> 00:15:58,450
embargoed by our government and its

359
00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:00,430
allies and it had a lot of allies back

360
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:04,270
in nineteen nineteen fifties some of the

361
00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:05,830
more authoritarian countries like Soviet

362
00:16:10,009 --> 00:16:09,190
Union Communist China went the same way

363
00:16:12,889 --> 00:16:10,019
perhaps

364
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:12,899
different reasons so what do you do pile

365
00:16:16,729 --> 00:16:14,639
science on top of science on top of

366
00:16:17,569 --> 00:16:16,739
science and have the government go we

367
00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:17,579
don't know what you're talking about

368
00:16:23,210 --> 00:16:20,399
that's not that's not how I roll

369
00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:23,220
so I got involved in the politics to

370
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:26,600
this and have been a political activist

371
00:16:33,979 --> 00:16:31,410
lobbyists know and I'm gonna continue to

372
00:16:35,239 --> 00:16:33,989
do that until we get the announcement we

373
00:16:38,269 --> 00:16:35,249
get to formal confirmation from the

374
00:16:40,999 --> 00:16:38,279
government now when you had your your

375
00:16:41,869 --> 00:16:41,009
big huge event there that kind of pushed

376
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:41,879
things forward

377
00:16:46,369 --> 00:16:43,860
now you're still getting ripples from

378
00:16:48,619 --> 00:16:46,379
that I mean are things still happening

379
00:16:50,359 --> 00:16:48,629
from that and that was well it four

380
00:16:51,859 --> 00:16:50,369
years ago now three years ago now you

381
00:16:54,079 --> 00:16:51,869
had the actual has been a lot this

382
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:54,089
happened it 2013 was the Citizen hearing

383
00:17:00,919 --> 00:16:58,110
on disclosure and then as the planned

384
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:00,929
follow-up to that I went to large came

385
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:05,360
back to Washington 2014 is November

386
00:17:12,740 --> 00:17:09,510
delivered we delivered a full 30 hour

387
00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:12,750
set of DVDs to every member of Congress

388
00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:15,569
just let them know that that had

389
00:17:22,179 --> 00:17:19,470
happened and I began to develop a story

390
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:22,189
for the political campaign of 2016

391
00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:25,770
2015-16 which happened to involve a

392
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:27,389
woman by the name of Senator Hillary

393
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:30,090
Clinton who was the leading candidate

394
00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:32,820
and the leading the likely person to be

395
00:17:39,159 --> 00:17:36,840
President and worked that story into the

396
00:17:43,519 --> 00:17:39,169
mainstream media until it caught fire

397
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:43,529
and generating 400 plus historical about

398
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:45,090
the connection between her John Podesta

399
00:17:51,289 --> 00:17:48,630
and her husband to the et issue going

400
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:51,299
all the way back to the early 1990s our

401
00:17:59,060 --> 00:17:55,919
mid-nineteen yeah early 99 but the

402
00:18:01,220 --> 00:17:59,070
nature of media right now still that

403
00:18:04,279 --> 00:18:01,230
they'll only go so far so while 400

404
00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:04,289
articles were written the debate

405
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:05,700
moderators refused to touch the issue

406
00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:08,370
and she was able to avoid happening to

407
00:18:12,289 --> 00:18:10,470
confront it more than she had and we had

408
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:12,299
forced them to speak to the issue a

409
00:18:18,110 --> 00:18:15,950
number of times about 11 or 12 total and

410
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:18,120
she was gonna just get to the White

411
00:18:23,810 --> 00:18:20,360
House I believe she intended to disclose

412
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:23,820
not shortly shortly and into her first

413
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:25,890
turn and a lot of other people did as

414
00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:31,020
well but that didn't happen so things

415
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:34,190
changed I went to Europe for most of

416
00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:38,970
2017 came back early 2018 went and been

417
00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:44,760
bait was Bansi but then in June of this

418
00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:48,540
year I became aware that the to the

419
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,950
Stars Academy which I've been following

420
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:51,780
very closely and supporting from the day

421
00:19:00,920 --> 00:18:59,270
with members of Congress there that a a

422
00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:00,930
pilot briefing of the President had

423
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:03,240
taken place and I knew at that point I

424
00:19:06,670 --> 00:19:04,890
had to get back to Washington DC I

425
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:06,680
wasn't going to be easy either

426
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:09,210
so I said about trying to raise some

427
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:10,260
money and make the necessary

428
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:11,730
arrangements would allow me to get back

429
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:15,570
here and not just get back to stay which

430
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:19,020
I intend to do until disclosure come but

431
00:19:24,590 --> 00:19:22,770
also to get an office in the off one it

432
00:19:27,410 --> 00:19:24,600
was in the national press building it's

433
00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:27,420
not easy to get in there and I spent

434
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:30,390
some time just working it and an

435
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:32,250
opportunity came about and I was able to

436
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:34,880
secure an office that office is now open

437
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:38,310
it's done it's completed and but it's an

438
00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:40,410
office studio because the plan is to

439
00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:47,340
launch soon a video podcast you think

440
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:50,300
more cast the national press building

441
00:19:58,580 --> 00:19:54,450
out of Washington DC and that is about

442
00:20:00,410 --> 00:19:58,590
two blocks from the White House so it

443
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:00,420
would be the first streaming broadcast

444
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:02,850
of any kind formally coming out of

445
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:04,590
Washington DC on all matters

446
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:07,980
exopolitical so that's that is the plan

447
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:13,170
and it's bold it's not as bold that's

448
00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:14,850
what the T TSA is doing I mean they're

449
00:20:22,790 --> 00:20:17,670
there they're way out in front they got

450
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:22,800
they got a a battle cruiser out there

451
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:28,020
but it has possibilities Mike my primary

452
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:30,720
goal is to use this special location of

453
00:20:34,850 --> 00:20:32,210
the podcast to use the fact that

454
00:20:36,170 --> 00:20:34,860
American brothers Club which is housed

455
00:20:37,169 --> 00:20:36,180
in that in the penthouse of that

456
00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:37,179
building too

457
00:20:47,519 --> 00:20:39,940
meet greet and convince some mainstream

458
00:20:49,499 --> 00:20:47,529
people to to to speak about this issue

459
00:20:52,619 --> 00:20:49,509
any interview in a highly intelligent

460
00:20:53,269 --> 00:20:52,629
safe space that would have never done

461
00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:53,279
that before

462
00:20:59,039 --> 00:20:56,830
it's not doing live stuff when on this

463
00:21:01,919 --> 00:20:59,049
issue for somebody it's got a high-level

464
00:21:07,259 --> 00:21:01,929
position into politics or journalism or

465
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:07,269
academia II a concern so but this will

466
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:10,210
be a taped product podcast and the

467
00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:12,129
beauty of that is that if the person is

468
00:21:16,769 --> 00:21:14,460
not comfortable with how the energy go

469
00:21:18,269 --> 00:21:16,779
and it can't be fixed then it just

470
00:21:22,259 --> 00:21:18,279
doesn't get air yeah I will put it up so

471
00:21:23,609 --> 00:21:22,269
I'm not looking to grill people I'm not

472
00:21:25,829 --> 00:21:23,619
looking investigative journalists I'm

473
00:21:28,229 --> 00:21:25,839
looking to be a conduit or a bridge

474
00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:28,239
between the developing mainstream world

475
00:21:32,669 --> 00:21:29,919
interest in this issue and the general

476
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:32,679
public because I am a I am a political

477
00:21:38,209 --> 00:21:35,679
activist and a populist and that's

478
00:21:41,339 --> 00:21:38,219
another reason why I got back to DC is

479
00:21:43,619 --> 00:21:41,349
that once I knew that the to the stars

480
00:21:45,719 --> 00:21:43,629
Academy was in fact lobbying Congress

481
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:45,729
which is what they're doing I have to be

482
00:21:52,229 --> 00:21:47,710
registered to do that as long as you're

483
00:21:53,070 --> 00:21:52,239
not well maybe this way it's complicated

484
00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:53,080
but the point is they were they were

485
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:55,089
obviously on the hill talking to members

486
00:22:02,249 --> 00:21:57,039
about their issues and what have you and

487
00:22:04,889 --> 00:22:02,259
that's fine but certainly that those

488
00:22:06,089 --> 00:22:04,899
issues were those of the military

489
00:22:08,669 --> 00:22:06,099
intelligence complex from which they

490
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:08,679
came which is appropriate the military

491
00:22:13,379 --> 00:22:11,200
intelligence complex has a array of

492
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:13,389
concerns and issues whether its interest

493
00:22:17,219 --> 00:22:15,129
with respect to the disclosure process

494
00:22:19,049 --> 00:22:17,229
pre disclosure disclosure of n itself in

495
00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:19,059
the post disclosure world so that they

496
00:22:23,940 --> 00:22:21,460
would be wanting to talk to members of

497
00:22:25,019 --> 00:22:23,950
Congress about it makes total sense of

498
00:22:26,489 --> 00:22:25,029
course I know where that's going

499
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:26,499
eventually is going to hearings when the

500
00:22:31,229 --> 00:22:29,320
political hurricane ends here at DC but

501
00:22:34,399 --> 00:22:31,239
that's not me I don't represent I

502
00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:34,409
represent only the American people

503
00:22:40,109 --> 00:22:37,089
turnout of burgers in there are

504
00:22:41,549 --> 00:22:40,119
interests such as complex injures he was

505
00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:41,559
that obviously as well represented right

506
00:22:45,959 --> 00:22:44,679
now and I as a until recently were still

507
00:22:48,329 --> 00:22:45,969
the only registered lobbyists on the

508
00:22:50,009 --> 00:22:48,339
issue which I did in order to appeal to

509
00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:50,019
media because they check these things

510
00:22:53,670 --> 00:22:50,920
but

511
00:22:57,060 --> 00:22:53,680
my co-host for this coming podcast which

512
00:23:00,930 --> 00:22:57,070
is called the disclosure wire will be

513
00:23:03,540 --> 00:23:00,940
history spindle who is the current state

514
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:03,550
director of MUFON Marilyn

515
00:23:08,850 --> 00:23:06,400
among other things and she's going to

516
00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:08,860
provide a powerful a networking

517
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:10,630
component she's also registered as a

518
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:12,070
lobbyist so now there's two registered

519
00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:14,170
federal lobbyist finally only took 23

520
00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:17,260
years to get the second one and it was a

521
00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:20,200
pay the pay is just so good people are

522
00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:22,360
afraid of it okay very they gonna make a

523
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:23,680
lot of money it's gonna ruin her life

524
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:27,610
yeah so that gives you a sense of what's

525
00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:29,530
happened on my world starting but thisis

526
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:31,390
this scenario on disclosure going

527
00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:36,490
through the 2016 election a hiatus in

528
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:40,350
Europe where I did go to Moscow and do a

529
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:42,130
interview that had never been done

530
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:45,310
before but nevertheless finally I've got

531
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:49,090
to get back to DC and it's crazy as it

532
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:53,100
is in this town right now I gotta be oh

533
00:23:57,590 --> 00:23:55,780
well Steve let us know we are actually

534
00:24:00,570 --> 00:23:57,600
out of time we have to go into break and

535
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:00,580
so that'll be it for us but can you tell

536
00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:03,760
us where we can actually get to this and

537
00:24:07,770 --> 00:24:06,340
is it on your website well if you go to

538
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:07,780
paradigm it isn't up yet

539
00:24:11,580 --> 00:24:10,240
you go to paradigm research group the

540
00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:11,590
main website there's a link right there

541
00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:14,680
to the indiegogo funding campaign where

542
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:17,140
we wanted to we set a goal of 10,000 we

543
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:19,360
reached that about two days ago we're

544
00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:21,250
gonna keep it up and develop some

545
00:24:25,050 --> 00:24:23,260
additional funding and the information

546
00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:25,060
about the podcast is extensively right

547
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:27,220
there in that IndieGoGo campaign linked

548
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:28,570
from paradigm research group org

549
00:24:33,420 --> 00:24:31,270
excellent excellent well thank you so

550
00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:33,430
much and I wish you great luck with that

551
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:36,040
I will be checking it out for sure all

552
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:40,540
right you take care bye bye now alright

553
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:42,070
everyone hang in there we have to go to

554
00:24:48,090 --> 00:24:44,110
a break and we'll be right back right

555
00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:48,100
after these messages all right we are

556
00:24:51,870 --> 00:24:50,140
back we have our guests

557
00:24:54,660 --> 00:24:51,880
Jennifer Stein and Peter Robbins both

558
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:54,670
have been on the show well up here a

559
00:24:58,860 --> 00:24:56,650
number of times Jennifer of three or

560
00:25:01,230 --> 00:24:58,870
four times I think all together but

561
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:01,240
welcome to the show you too Thank You

562
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:04,130
Martin yes and

563
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:07,910
I I really enjoyed hanging out with both

564
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:11,600
of you both of you I saw Jennifer out in

565
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:14,210
Phoenix and Peter you and I've run into

566
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:15,650
each other a number of times over the

567
00:25:21,130 --> 00:25:18,490
years it's always a lot of fun and

568
00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:21,140
you're I consider you both really good

569
00:25:26,919 --> 00:25:24,830
people and I'm really glad that you both

570
00:25:28,029 --> 00:25:26,929
work together and if you look if you're

571
00:25:29,529 --> 00:25:28,039
on YouTube now and you look in the

572
00:25:33,669 --> 00:25:29,539
background Jennifer what are those

573
00:25:36,820 --> 00:25:33,679
Awards behind you I it's my office

574
00:25:39,399 --> 00:25:36,830
and those are some Emmy Awards these

575
00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:39,409
guys are kind of fun I don't think can

576
00:25:44,529 --> 00:25:42,830
reach 100 can i yeah just a second I'll

577
00:25:48,970 --> 00:25:44,539
just ought to be interesting here I'd be

578
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:48,980
funky looking guy they're the little oh

579
00:25:56,529 --> 00:25:52,850
yes characters that open minds gives out

580
00:25:59,620 --> 00:25:56,539
oh yes and they are a gray a lien and

581
00:26:04,180 --> 00:25:59,630
it's holding a video camera and it's got

582
00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:04,190
a little reel under its arm so I'm I've

583
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:08,030
been the lucky winner of four of their

584
00:26:12,610 --> 00:26:09,650
awards and the others are some film

585
00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:12,620
festivals Orlando and you know just some

586
00:26:17,620 --> 00:26:15,350
other Awards in the UFO community it's

587
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:17,630
nice to happen with this what do you do

588
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:19,070
with them you stick them in your office

589
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:21,890
yeah well I think you deserve those

590
00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:24,890
awards and you do a really nice job you

591
00:26:30,610 --> 00:26:26,120
know one of the things we are going to

592
00:26:34,090 --> 00:26:30,620
be talking about Forestal but just also

593
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:34,100
other topics as well for those people

594
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:36,110
that were writing me saying that they

595
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:37,250
don't want to hear about forests so

596
00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:38,960
we'll talk about other things as well

597
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,200
but how did you Jennifer how did you get

598
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:44,240
interested in this topic

599
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:46,190
I know I believe I heard you talk one

600
00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:49,760
time I did I think up in Maine no that

601
00:26:52,990 --> 00:26:51,320
was a long time ago conference I think

602
00:26:56,110 --> 00:26:53,000
that's when I first met you Mar that's

603
00:26:59,140 --> 00:26:56,120
right yeah you know I had a sighting a

604
00:27:01,419 --> 00:26:59,150
personal sighting I've had more than one

605
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:01,429
now in my life but the first one was

606
00:27:08,289 --> 00:27:05,270
when I was 19 and it was a significant

607
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:08,299
sighting like 80 90 feet long five six

608
00:27:13,270 --> 00:27:11,450
feet high a rectangle of white light

609
00:27:15,580 --> 00:27:13,280
which made no sense to me at that point

610
00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:15,590
in my life I wasn't really following the

611
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:18,500
UFO topic it was 1971

612
00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:20,330
five and I was 19 years old and it

613
00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:22,190
occurred right outside my bedroom window

614
00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:24,500
where I lived in near Lansdale

615
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:27,980
Pennsylvania and it kind of stayed in my

616
00:27:31,870 --> 00:27:30,080
gray box I was journaling and I had

617
00:27:34,090 --> 00:27:31,880
written it down but I didn't know how to

618
00:27:37,780 --> 00:27:34,100
understand it and it stayed in my gray

619
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:37,790
box for about almost 25 years until I

620
00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:40,910
had the luck of encountering someone who

621
00:27:46,150 --> 00:27:43,400
was at my house at that time and had the

622
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:46,160
same experience I had and once we kind

623
00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:48,110
of compared notes which we did it

624
00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:50,030
independently I told him go write your

625
00:27:54,790 --> 00:27:51,980
stuff down I don't want you messing with

626
00:27:56,830 --> 00:27:54,800
my my memory I have my memory but I

627
00:27:59,470 --> 00:27:56,840
don't know what you saw and once I

628
00:28:01,840 --> 00:27:59,480
looked at his drawings and diagrams and

629
00:28:04,090 --> 00:28:01,850
his story he wrote out I realized okay

630
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,100
that was real and that was when I was

631
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:06,320
about 45 so that's what I kind of just

632
00:28:11,170 --> 00:28:09,050
profoundly decided okay you know either

633
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:11,180
I'm gonna allow this to inform myself

634
00:28:15,490 --> 00:28:14,000
I'm going to start to educate myself I'm

635
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:15,500
just gonna start to go to conferences

636
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:18,770
read books and whatnot and shortly after

637
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:21,490
that I met Peter Robbins at the

638
00:28:30,670 --> 00:28:25,250
Rochester MUFON conference and that's

639
00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:30,680
kind of how I but whoops I don't know if

640
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:33,980
we lost you Pete are you there I am huh

641
00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:38,000
and that was there just me did you lose

642
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:41,300
me yeah you froze I jumped for a second

643
00:28:48,790 --> 00:28:45,410
okay no Ruben Uriarte who was the state

644
00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:48,800
director of MUFON encouraged me to start

645
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:51,470
an active MUFON group in Pennsylvania

646
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:53,360
because there wasn't one so I did in

647
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:56,030
2000 and I've been had the pleasure of

648
00:29:01,420 --> 00:28:58,250
bringing in speakers and you know Martin

649
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:01,430
by interviewing people and going to

650
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,710
conferences and reading books you learn

651
00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:05,360
a tremendous amount and my life has

652
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:07,100
never been the same that I never looked

653
00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:09,110
back I I've been grateful for the

654
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:11,390
wonderful people like Peter that I've

655
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:15,110
just come to admire and their mentors to

656
00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:17,930
me Stanton Friedman was a huge mentor to

657
00:29:23,620 --> 00:29:21,680
me and I just continued to learn and

658
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:23,630
challenge myself and it's very humbling

659
00:29:27,790 --> 00:29:26,090
because this is not an easy field and

660
00:29:28,419 --> 00:29:27,800
not an easy topic to wrap your brain

661
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:28,429
around

662
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:31,250
yeah alright I totally agree with that

663
00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:32,090
and

664
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:35,150
I also agree with what you just said

665
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:38,450
that it it's this whole topic has kind

666
00:29:42,370 --> 00:29:40,640
of enriched my life I mean it's it's

667
00:29:44,670 --> 00:29:42,380
interesting and you meet some wonderful

668
00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:44,680
people I mean I'm really enjoying myself

669
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:47,870
you know hanging out with some people

670
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:51,350
that we share at least a curiosity about

671
00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:52,430
what's going on

672
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:54,380
maybe we'll ever find out exactly what

673
00:29:59,170 --> 00:29:56,270
it is but it's still fun

674
00:30:02,260 --> 00:29:59,180
your turn Peter we want to find out I

675
00:30:03,790 --> 00:30:02,270
know you actually had anime we you've

676
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:03,800
told this story a number of times on

677
00:30:08,170 --> 00:30:05,210
this site but again we do have a lot of

678
00:30:10,540 --> 00:30:08,180
new people you had that amazing sighting

679
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:10,550
that you shared with your sister with

680
00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:14,530
those silver discs in New York right and

681
00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:20,060
indeed my sister Helen and I had a very

682
00:30:25,540 --> 00:30:22,940
clear daylight sighting as kids in the

683
00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:25,550
village that we grew up in about 30

684
00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:28,820
miles east of Manhattan it was

685
00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:31,940
undeniable it was overwhelming to me it

686
00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:34,790
was something I was emotionally and

687
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:36,980
informational II completely unprepared

688
00:30:42,190 --> 00:30:39,760
to deal with at that point in my life

689
00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:42,200
what we observed coming in at a high

690
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:43,790
rate of speed and stopping over the

691
00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:47,690
neighbors house were six silvery white

692
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:51,860
disc shaped objects essentially ellipses

693
00:30:58,330 --> 00:30:54,050
like holding a dinner plate at an angle

694
00:31:01,600 --> 00:30:58,340
in a very precise military v as in

695
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:01,610
Victor type formation and they just hung

696
00:31:06,970 --> 00:31:03,770
there for an internally long period of

697
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:06,980
time close enough that we could see they

698
00:31:13,270 --> 00:31:10,250
were obviously metallic not shiny like

699
00:31:15,670 --> 00:31:13,280
stainless steel more like you know non

700
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:15,680
reflective aluminum or something and

701
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:17,840
that we could make out regular detailing

702
00:31:23,530 --> 00:31:19,610
around the edge of each which in

703
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:23,540
comparing notes many years later we both

704
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:28,190
could only draw on how Windows looked on

705
00:31:32,620 --> 00:31:30,170
in a commercial aircraft at an

706
00:31:37,450 --> 00:31:32,630
appreciable distance but I was

707
00:31:39,310 --> 00:31:37,460
overwhelmed by it and I refused to speak

708
00:31:39,550 --> 00:31:39,320
with my sister about it who never forgot

709
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:39,560
it

710
00:31:47,710 --> 00:31:45,650
repressed memory of childhood

711
00:31:49,270 --> 00:31:47,720
although I occasionally joke with people

712
00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:49,280
that if I have other oppressed memories

713
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:52,520
from childhood I don't remember them but

714
00:31:58,030 --> 00:31:54,530
it took more than 14 years for that

715
00:32:00,760 --> 00:31:58,040
memory to reemerge and when it did it

716
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:00,770
did like a freight train and they come

717
00:32:05,980 --> 00:32:03,290
through artwork you're at work more

718
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:05,990
partially it was several contributing

719
00:32:13,330 --> 00:32:09,050
factors I think the most important one

720
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:13,340
being that my mind was ready to deal

721
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:16,960
with this subject but the triggers were

722
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:19,250
going through a number of drawings that

723
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:21,679
I had recently been given by my

724
00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:23,960
grandmother that she had saved from my

725
00:32:32,770 --> 00:32:28,820
childhood at a time when most relatives

726
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:32,780
adults did not save kids drawings I my

727
00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:34,370
theory is because it was before they

728
00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:36,920
invented refrigerator magnets be that as

729
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:38,440
it may

730
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:40,640
none of the drawings related to the

731
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:42,590
subject but several of the drawings were

732
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:45,260
done at about that time in my life that

733
00:32:53,049 --> 00:32:50,470
combined with the fact that I had was

734
00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:53,059
lost quite a bit of sleep it had just

735
00:32:58,510 --> 00:32:54,980
been the Chinese New Year and I lived in

736
00:32:59,620 --> 00:32:58,520
Chinatown and back in those days the

737
00:33:01,600 --> 00:32:59,630
police looked the other way with

738
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:01,610
fireworks and you know you were

739
00:33:06,340 --> 00:33:05,240
essentially in a zone that for 72 hours

740
00:33:09,970 --> 00:33:06,350
or so

741
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:09,980
smelled like cordite and the noise never

742
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:13,370
stopped and I had taken a human

743
00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:15,710
potential workshop fairly recently

744
00:33:23,049 --> 00:33:20,360
before that which essentially gave me

745
00:33:24,940 --> 00:33:23,059
more things to think about but it all

746
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:24,950
came together in the course of about 15

747
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:27,370
minutes or so and it absolutely

748
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:30,890
immobilized me I was shocked in that I

749
00:33:37,030 --> 00:33:34,910
knew how real it was I I thought I must

750
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:37,040
be going crazy because how could anybody

751
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:40,850
forget something so profoundly impacting

752
00:33:47,020 --> 00:33:43,010
certainly the most significant moment of

753
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:47,030
my childhood I now understand that the

754
00:33:51,250 --> 00:33:49,250
human mind can certainly do an

755
00:33:53,169 --> 00:33:51,260
extraordinary job of pressing things but

756
00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:53,179
I I waited until I had kind of calmed

757
00:33:58,330 --> 00:33:55,880
down had a cup of tea thought things out

758
00:33:59,440 --> 00:33:58,340
before calling my sister who lived a

759
00:34:02,230 --> 00:33:59,450
mile or so north of me

760
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:02,240
in the East Village mostly as a poet at

761
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:07,730
the time and had enough forethought to

762
00:34:12,909 --> 00:34:11,089
not tell her what I remembered because I

763
00:34:15,849 --> 00:34:12,919
knew if I did she'd either say yes or no

764
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:15,859
and I wouldn't know for sure in my heart

765
00:34:22,569 --> 00:34:17,950
very much the same spirit as Jennifer

766
00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:22,579
having that experience or write down in

767
00:34:29,230 --> 00:34:24,950
his drawings before they compared notes

768
00:34:32,740 --> 00:34:29,240
and I chose to set the scene and

769
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:32,750
described the time of year about how old

770
00:34:36,579 --> 00:34:34,490
we were where we were standing in front

771
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:36,589
of the house what the weather was like

772
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:39,290
and she cut me off mid-sentence Martin

773
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:42,530
and then proceeded to tell me what I had

774
00:34:47,770 --> 00:34:46,010
remembered with one slight variation the

775
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:47,780
number of crafts which we worked out

776
00:34:53,319 --> 00:34:51,770
very quickly the next day but more to

777
00:34:57,900 --> 00:34:53,329
the point that she said there was more

778
00:35:00,310 --> 00:34:57,910
and then went on to describe what now

779
00:35:02,530 --> 00:35:00,320
sometimes even word-for-word is an

780
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:02,540
archetypical series of fragmented

781
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:06,170
memories that many many people who have

782
00:35:13,150 --> 00:35:09,760
had the UFO abductions experience share

783
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:13,160
this was not only new to me but it was

784
00:35:19,450 --> 00:35:15,290
not part of the culture

785
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:19,460
except for interrupted journey the very

786
00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:21,200
fine book about Betty and Barney Hills

787
00:35:27,339 --> 00:35:23,540
experience what had happened ten years

788
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:27,349
before that I know actually had happened

789
00:35:33,370 --> 00:35:30,290
the year that we had had our sighting I

790
00:35:36,010 --> 00:35:33,380
was clueless and at the same time

791
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:36,020
completely shocked by my sisters

792
00:35:41,890 --> 00:35:39,250
memories of flying through the air of

793
00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:41,900
walking through a curved metal hallway

794
00:35:46,359 --> 00:35:44,270
of being on the table

795
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:46,369
the term gray who was not in the culture

796
00:35:50,859 --> 00:35:48,760
for some years after that so she

797
00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:50,869
described the beings as best as she

798
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:52,940
could from her twelve-year-old memory

799
00:35:58,359 --> 00:35:55,609
and you know people use the phrase my

800
00:36:02,020 --> 00:35:58,369
life changed overnight mind changed in

801
00:36:05,950 --> 00:36:02,030
about ten minutes and ultimately served

802
00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:05,960
to derail the career that I had longed

803
00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:08,060
for aim for was beginning to make a

804
00:36:13,870 --> 00:36:11,900
reality namely being a serious painter

805
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:13,880
in New York City

806
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:15,920
because something more important had

807
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:18,310
come up and I resented it tremendously I

808
00:36:23,620 --> 00:36:21,530
continued to teach painting to paint but

809
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:23,630
the heart had gone out of it and after a

810
00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:26,210
number of years I've just began to

811
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:29,110
devote myself full time to UFO studies

812
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:32,330
mm-hmm thank you for all that that's

813
00:36:37,210 --> 00:36:35,210
that's really fascinating and and I have

814
00:36:41,710 --> 00:36:37,220
to tell you you know you've told me this

815
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:41,720
story on my show which was about oh I

816
00:36:45,940 --> 00:36:43,640
don't know how many shows and it was

817
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:45,950
just a few shows in when we met we met

818
00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:49,490
fairly early on when I was started my

819
00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:50,870
show yeah that's right

820
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:53,660
and the reason I'm bringing that up your

821
00:36:59,200 --> 00:36:56,720
story is exactly the same nothing has

822
00:37:03,790 --> 00:36:59,210
changed at all and which is always a

823
00:37:07,630 --> 00:37:03,800
very good sign I work on it making I had

824
00:37:10,830 --> 00:37:07,640
some details next time so that's good

825
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:10,840
yeah now you'll be normal so Forrest all

826
00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:14,090
let's talk about him of what whose

827
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:17,150
brainchild was this to to do this film

828
00:37:23,140 --> 00:37:19,810
about him and I understand a lot of I

829
00:37:25,390 --> 00:37:23,150
didn't get a chance to unfortunately I

830
00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:25,400
didn't get a chance to see it but I

831
00:37:32,140 --> 00:37:28,360
understand a lot of it is footage of him

832
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:32,150
that was dug up but anyway why don't you

833
00:37:36,250 --> 00:37:33,680
get into that a little bit how that all

834
00:37:39,790 --> 00:37:36,260
came about well I wouldn't say a lot of

835
00:37:42,730 --> 00:37:39,800
it but some of it I mean the life and

836
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:42,740
death of James Vincent Forrestal our

837
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:45,710
first Secretary of Defense has

838
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:48,410
fascinated me and at times obsessed me

839
00:37:56,830 --> 00:37:52,570
on and off for more than 30 years I

840
00:38:00,160 --> 00:37:56,840
learned about him first in 1987 a fairly

841
00:38:02,650 --> 00:38:00,170
significant year for me in the work and

842
00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:02,660
a year that I had decided to really

843
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:04,280
commit myself to this work

844
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:08,990
professionally at the 1987 International

845
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:12,110
MUFON symposium held that year at

846
00:38:17,740 --> 00:38:14,380
American University in Washington DC

847
00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:17,750
Stanton Friedman gave a presentation

848
00:38:23,230 --> 00:38:20,900
that in a way changed my life I had

849
00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:23,240
first heard Stan speak 10 years before

850
00:38:27,870 --> 00:38:25,900
when I was very new in this

851
00:38:31,770 --> 00:38:27,880
but had the privilege of working on

852
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:31,780
being an editor on a paper that had been

853
00:38:38,340 --> 00:38:33,730
requested by the secretary-general of

854
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:38,350
the UN on a possible triggering of

855
00:38:45,690 --> 00:38:40,960
nuclear war by a misidentification of a

856
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:45,700
truly anomalous UFO and for that work I

857
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:48,250
earned the right to be in the General

858
00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:50,530
Assembly Hall during a series of

859
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:52,390
meetings of the special political

860
00:39:01,320 --> 00:38:56,800
committee which stan addressed along

861
00:39:06,030 --> 00:39:01,330
with dr. Alan J Allen Hynek Jacques

862
00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:06,040
Vallee a captain coin army captain who

863
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:07,660
had been volved in a very well

864
00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:11,490
documented helicopter semi abduction and

865
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:15,400
it was on the secret life of a man who

866
00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:18,180
most of us knew in the work as a

867
00:39:25,650 --> 00:39:22,150
debunker but a quiet academic one the

868
00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:25,660
head of astronomy studies at Harvard who

869
00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:29,140
went on to become the mentor of Philip

870
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:30,820
Glass probably the best known UFO

871
00:39:35,610 --> 00:39:32,650
debunker and it was called the secret

872
00:39:37,820 --> 00:39:35,620
life of Donald K Menzel and in it by

873
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:37,830
dint of sheer scholarship and research

874
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:43,330
and I intention an extraordinarily well

875
00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:45,310
documented stand had gotten permission

876
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:49,180
to go into the Harvard archives and

877
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:52,890
access all of the papers around Menzel

878
00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:55,690
then in the National Archives and then

879
00:40:00,780 --> 00:39:58,570
became the only person to add a third

880
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:00,790
which was a permission from Menzel's

881
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:03,220
widow to go over his personal papers and

882
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:06,010
what Stan established was Menzel did

883
00:40:11,250 --> 00:40:08,110
indeed live a double life he was the

884
00:40:13,740 --> 00:40:11,260
academic on astronomy at Harvard and as

885
00:40:16,650 --> 00:40:13,750
such had great sway in the Astronomy

886
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:16,660
community but he was also a trusted

887
00:40:21,330 --> 00:40:18,070
member of our national security

888
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:21,340
apparatus which even his wife was not

889
00:40:28,380 --> 00:40:24,850
aware of anyway it was about the same

890
00:40:31,230 --> 00:40:28,390
time that the mj-12 briefing paper the

891
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:31,240
eight page memorandum to president-elect

892
00:40:37,410 --> 00:40:33,970
eisenhower with the attached one-page

893
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:37,420
letter from September of 47 from Truman

894
00:40:42,359 --> 00:40:39,040
to Forrestal as the new

895
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:42,369
and first Secretary of Defense to begin

896
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:47,670
his work on this particular topic and I

897
00:40:54,990 --> 00:40:51,970
I decided I was going to write a paper

898
00:40:59,340 --> 00:40:55,000
and do the research modeling it on

899
00:41:02,280 --> 00:40:59,350
stands and I had it down to two or three

900
00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:02,290
of the members of mj-12 the other one

901
00:41:07,740 --> 00:41:05,880
who was closest was dr. Vannevar Bush

902
00:41:11,460 --> 00:41:07,750
Roosevelt and Truman's

903
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:11,470
Science and Technology advisor and it's

904
00:41:20,609 --> 00:41:13,450
one of the most extraordinary Americans

905
00:41:22,770 --> 00:41:20,619
ever he I won't even go into I could

906
00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:22,780
spend the whole show talking about Bush

907
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:25,720
no relation to the current crop anyway I

908
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:28,510
spoke with my parents shortly after and

909
00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:30,730
had dinner with them and my sitting with

910
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,220
my mom talking about the project showing

911
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:35,440
her this memorandum telling her who I

912
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:37,510
had it down to and she said do Forrestal

913
00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:40,330
I said well that's pretty definitive why

914
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:43,600
she said number one you have no idea how

915
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:45,609
important he was to us during World War

916
00:41:53,460 --> 00:41:49,570
two his name was in the news as often as

917
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:53,470
Harry Truman's was he genuinely as an

918
00:41:59,609 --> 00:41:55,450
individual was credited with helping us

919
00:42:03,180 --> 00:41:59,619
win the war as assistant secretary of

920
00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:03,190
Navy secretary of Navy had lived a

921
00:42:09,450 --> 00:42:05,830
absolute storybook life almost Horatio

922
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:09,460
Alger like the arc on the narrative of

923
00:42:18,090 --> 00:42:14,310
his life I compare in the documentary to

924
00:42:20,940 --> 00:42:18,100
had scott Fitzgerald needed or wanted a

925
00:42:24,510 --> 00:42:20,950
real character to base his most famous

926
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:24,520
literary character on Jay Gatsby James

927
00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:26,790
Forrestal could have been that person

928
00:42:33,630 --> 00:42:31,780
anyway she went on to say that when he

929
00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:33,640
committed suicide which was the

930
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:37,030
understanding at the time the nation

931
00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:38,710
went into deep mourning and she said it

932
00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:40,960
for me it might been the closest thing I

933
00:42:46,890 --> 00:42:43,480
had to your experience as a young person

934
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:46,900
to President Kennedy's murder and then

935
00:42:51,780 --> 00:42:49,330
she said and you know he was incredibly

936
00:42:52,859 --> 00:42:51,790
handsome he was a very sharp dresser he

937
00:42:56,430 --> 00:42:52,869
hung out with movies

938
00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:56,440
stars and writers and I had a crush on

939
00:42:59,549 --> 00:42:56,710
him

940
00:43:01,559 --> 00:42:59,559
and I thought well that's that my mother

941
00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:01,569
had a crush on the first secretary of

942
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:02,980
defense who I think may have been

943
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:05,890
murdered and I got to work but

944
00:43:13,529 --> 00:43:09,609
intermittently I first spoke about the

945
00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:13,539
subject not until 2004 then continued to

946
00:43:19,259 --> 00:43:16,950
write about him to do presentations

947
00:43:21,630 --> 00:43:19,269
which brings us up to about two years

948
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:21,640
ago when I expressed to Jennifer and a

949
00:43:28,009 --> 00:43:24,249
number of other close colleagues that I

950
00:43:31,049 --> 00:43:28,019
I was searching for some medium some way

951
00:43:33,319 --> 00:43:31,059
to reach a larger audience than the one

952
00:43:36,509 --> 00:43:33,329
that people like me traditionally reach

953
00:43:38,549 --> 00:43:36,519
let's face it if Jennifer and I speak at

954
00:43:40,859 --> 00:43:38,559
a conference the great majority of

955
00:43:42,329 --> 00:43:40,869
people that are there we're preaching to

956
00:43:44,009 --> 00:43:42,339
the choir they're already interested

957
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:44,019
they're already involved they either

958
00:43:51,180 --> 00:43:48,450
believe or are studying the subject and

959
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:51,190
how do you break through that in the

960
00:43:59,099 --> 00:43:54,640
world of conferences and podcasts and

961
00:44:01,710 --> 00:43:59,109
you know the set universe of ufology and

962
00:44:05,249 --> 00:44:01,720
I thought I have a background in theatre

963
00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:05,259
and a fairly extensive one I work for

964
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:08,680
years off-broadway in management and had

965
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:11,650
the great thrill of working with Tony

966
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:13,650
Award winners and Academy Award winners

967
00:44:20,789 --> 00:44:16,930
also assistant directing and I thought

968
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:20,799
perhaps there's a way without writing a

969
00:44:27,690 --> 00:44:22,480
play because I'm not a playwright that I

970
00:44:30,779 --> 00:44:27,700
can bring this into a more a staged

971
00:44:33,870 --> 00:44:30,789
reading where I create a script I have

972
00:44:35,789 --> 00:44:33,880
images illustrating what I'm saying but

973
00:44:37,529 --> 00:44:35,799
I'm not standing there with a clicker

974
00:44:40,979 --> 00:44:37,539
moving the slides forward I can

975
00:44:44,849 --> 00:44:40,989
concentrate on the script and tell this

976
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:44,859
story and a very strictly chronological

977
00:44:50,999 --> 00:44:48,970
timeline but not even mention the

978
00:44:53,370 --> 00:44:51,009
subject of UFOs until it came up

979
00:44:56,460 --> 00:44:53,380
chronologically the story begins in the

980
00:45:01,229 --> 00:44:56,470
1890s when Forrestal is born and the

981
00:45:04,289 --> 00:45:01,239
first mention of the subject is 1947 my

982
00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:04,299
hope being that by then serious

983
00:45:08,310 --> 00:45:06,580
listeners who might

984
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:08,320
never go to UFO conference but would

985
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:09,850
certainly go to a play and might be

986
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:13,420
interested in seeing a slightly

987
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:16,990
dramatized just in terms of the words

988
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:19,120
that I used and how I handled them the

989
00:45:24,590 --> 00:45:22,330
images behind me treatment of a really

990
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:24,600
interesting story about an American a

991
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:28,980
true hero a patriot a very decent man

992
00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:31,330
who had been written out of American

993
00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:33,430
history and who may in fact have been

994
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:37,180
murdered and then how do I present the

995
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:40,330
case because I knew I would be speaking

996
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:43,650
to attorneys as well as laymen

997
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:45,910
ultimately I work shopped at several

998
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:48,610
times first and friend's apartment with

999
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:50,320
about 20 people in New York City about

1000
00:45:58,440 --> 00:45:53,680
two years ago than before a terrific

1001
00:46:01,950 --> 00:45:58,450
like Jennifer's main line MUFON a group

1002
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:01,960
called Rochester UFO meetup group run by

1003
00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:06,030
the indomitable cookie Stringfellow and

1004
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:09,190
that was a bit smoother ultimately we

1005
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:12,070
brings us to last April when I was

1006
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:14,110
scheduled to speak for Jennifer's group

1007
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:17,830
and that early afternoon we had some

1008
00:46:24,510 --> 00:46:20,640
hours before the talk and Jennifer said

1009
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:24,520
you know I have a home studio and with

1010
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:29,250
Bob Theriot our third wheel who did

1011
00:46:34,530 --> 00:46:31,930
oversaw the placement and the use of all

1012
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:34,540
the visual material was Jennifer's

1013
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:36,220
cameraman on the outstanding

1014
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:39,280
award-winning Travis the true story of

1015
00:46:46,350 --> 00:46:42,640
Travis Walton documentary that with the

1016
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:46,360
green-screen Jen said I have a new piece

1017
00:46:51,420 --> 00:46:49,270
of equipment which is a teleprompter

1018
00:46:54,090 --> 00:46:51,430
have you ever used one and I said no

1019
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:54,100
never and she said well I've loaded your

1020
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:57,130
script into it let's give it a go and I

1021
00:47:00,720 --> 00:46:58,720
had thought if we were going to do it

1022
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:00,730
I'd work as usual with the sheath of

1023
00:47:04,410 --> 00:47:02,650
papers that I'd have memorized coming

1024
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:04,420
and going from them it's a very

1025
00:47:09,090 --> 00:47:06,880
different experience staring into this

1026
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,100
box for an interminable amount of time

1027
00:47:14,430 --> 00:47:11,280
and doing my best to keep in contact

1028
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:14,440
remembering that if it worked well the

1029
00:47:19,890 --> 00:47:15,790
illusion would be that I was speaking

1030
00:47:22,380 --> 00:47:19,900
directly to viewers the same way you

1031
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:22,390
were used to newsreaders that illusion

1032
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:24,250
that they're speaking to us when you

1033
00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:26,020
know we're just part of a large audience

1034
00:47:32,370 --> 00:47:27,910
and they're speaking into a mechanical

1035
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:32,380
device anyway when it was done I turned

1036
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:34,450
it over technically to Bob and Jennifer

1037
00:47:40,109 --> 00:47:37,930
I had assembled most of the images but I

1038
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:40,119
hadn't even thought about adding film

1039
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:43,089
images I you know an independent

1040
00:47:48,809 --> 00:47:46,089
researcher i fund all my own stuff and

1041
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:48,819
having Jennifer as an overseeing

1042
00:47:53,220 --> 00:47:50,650
producer I knew would allow me some

1043
00:47:55,740 --> 00:47:53,230
latitude she and Bob found some

1044
00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:55,750
wonderful film footage which we use I

1045
00:48:03,750 --> 00:47:59,410
think very well and the ending impact

1046
00:48:08,250 --> 00:48:03,760
it's only been shown publicly twice once

1047
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:08,260
as a finalist in the International UFO

1048
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:10,960
Congress Film Festival we've got a very

1049
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:12,670
nice mention and up again stiff

1050
00:48:21,390 --> 00:48:15,970
competition and about a week a little

1051
00:48:23,549 --> 00:48:21,400
over a week ago for a the MUFON group in

1052
00:48:28,890 --> 00:48:23,559
Syracuse New York where I speak

1053
00:48:31,109 --> 00:48:28,900
sometimes as well and we've now had more

1054
00:48:34,589 --> 00:48:31,119
and more people taking a look at it who

1055
00:48:38,819 --> 00:48:34,599
not only find it engaging but very

1056
00:48:42,329 --> 00:48:38,829
moving and within the next few weeks it

1057
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:42,339
will be available internationally online

1058
00:48:48,299 --> 00:48:46,450
or to be ordered as a DVD and that will

1059
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:48,309
be the true test but it's an important

1060
00:48:57,029 --> 00:48:52,200
story and before I relinquish the floor

1061
00:49:00,799 --> 00:48:57,039
just to say why even bother with a story

1062
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:00,809
that's 60 years old

1063
00:49:09,809 --> 00:49:06,250
70 years old it's old history well it's

1064
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:09,819
a very important window into the early

1065
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:12,970
days of the UFO cover-up and a very

1066
00:49:18,410 --> 00:49:16,210
different perception about the nature of

1067
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:18,420
secrecy who could keep it who could not

1068
00:49:24,620 --> 00:49:22,240
a very tragic twist literally a Greek

1069
00:49:31,980 --> 00:49:24,630
tragedy that his life story ends with

1070
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:31,990
and I document everything if anybody is

1071
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:32,770
interested

1072
00:49:37,470 --> 00:49:35,170
you know after seeing it there's a long

1073
00:49:40,050 --> 00:49:37,480
Diddley ography attached of 35 or so

1074
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:40,060
print sources and we're looking forward

1075
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:40,810
to get going

1076
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:44,410
excellent okay do you have one Peter you

1077
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:48,850
can hold up actually we don't back when

1078
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:50,650
we come back we have to go into a break

1079
00:49:54,930 --> 00:49:53,200
right now so hang in everyone we'll be

1080
00:49:57,060 --> 00:49:54,940
right back right after these messages

1081
00:49:59,160 --> 00:49:57,070
with we'll be back with Jennifer Stein

1082
00:50:01,830 --> 00:49:59,170
and Peter Rock my guests this evening

1083
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:01,840
are Jennifer Stein and Peter Robbins

1084
00:50:07,140 --> 00:50:03,490
we're going to be talking about the

1085
00:50:08,340 --> 00:50:07,150
James Forrestal case for a while and

1086
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:08,350
then of course we'll get into other

1087
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:12,130
things Peter well I'll ask you this

1088
00:50:18,750 --> 00:50:15,850
Jennifer what was was your involvement

1089
00:50:20,670 --> 00:50:18,760
in this any curiosity about for style

1090
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:20,680
himself or was it just to work with

1091
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:24,850
Peter well though Peter is such I've

1092
00:50:29,310 --> 00:50:26,830
such admiration for Peter I mean what

1093
00:50:33,140 --> 00:50:29,320
author takes books that they have off

1094
00:50:35,220 --> 00:50:33,150
the market who's made a life career and

1095
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:35,230
interest in researching and studying

1096
00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:38,410
this work and then takes the products

1097
00:50:42,780 --> 00:50:40,840
they have and no longer has them and I

1098
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:42,790
looked at his research and was so

1099
00:50:47,490 --> 00:50:45,520
impressed with it I said Peter let's do

1100
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:47,500
an experiment I mean I literally just

1101
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:48,880
threw this at him I don't think he

1102
00:50:53,970 --> 00:50:51,609
expected this at all I said if you can

1103
00:50:56,099 --> 00:50:53,980
read this from paper you can read it

1104
00:50:57,690 --> 00:50:56,109
from a teleprompter let's just put you

1105
00:51:00,510 --> 00:50:57,700
in front of a green screen and see what

1106
00:51:02,310 --> 00:51:00,520
happens and he was like whoa like do we

1107
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:02,320
have time before we go to the meeting I

1108
00:51:06,060 --> 00:51:03,850
said sure we have an hour and a half

1109
00:51:07,950 --> 00:51:06,070
let's just dry it so I made lunch I

1110
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:07,960
invited Bob over I invited another

1111
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:10,960
filmmaker over and I think Peter didn't

1112
00:51:16,349 --> 00:51:14,320
know quite what hit him but I wanted to

1113
00:51:17,940 --> 00:51:16,359
get him in front of a camera and I

1114
00:51:20,910 --> 00:51:17,950
thought gosh he's got this great

1115
00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:20,920
PowerPoint done I did a project like

1116
00:51:26,250 --> 00:51:22,750
this a number of years ago with Kathy

1117
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:26,260
Martin she wanted to release the audio

1118
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:28,330
tapes of Betty and Barney and I said

1119
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:30,490
wait wait wait don't release that an

1120
00:51:36,060 --> 00:51:32,650
audio because everyone will boot like it

1121
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:36,070
let's do a video and I literally sat her

1122
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:37,930
down in front of a camera interviewed

1123
00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:39,609
her and then took her PowerPoint and

1124
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:41,710
made a quick simple video for her called

1125
00:51:46,140 --> 00:51:44,050
in their own words and she loves that

1126
00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:46,150
she's grateful that she has and Bob and

1127
00:51:48,269 --> 00:51:46,630
I did

1128
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:48,279
that and I thought we could do something

1129
00:51:52,859 --> 00:51:50,410
similar with the Forrestal project and

1130
00:51:56,059 --> 00:51:52,869
Peter would have another product to go

1131
00:51:59,309 --> 00:51:56,069
out to the UFO community with you know

1132
00:52:01,710 --> 00:51:59,319
it helps to have books and products that

1133
00:52:03,359 --> 00:52:01,720
people can identify you with and I

1134
00:52:06,299 --> 00:52:03,369
thought that the research he did on

1135
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:06,309
Forrestal was was tremendously important

1136
00:52:10,289 --> 00:52:08,529
because we are starting to see

1137
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:10,299
disclosure in a way now that we never

1138
00:52:13,230 --> 00:52:11,170
had before

1139
00:52:15,839 --> 00:52:13,240
and what's happening is everyone is

1140
00:52:18,299 --> 00:52:15,849
harkening now back to when did all this

1141
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:18,309
disclosure begin well boom it's right

1142
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:22,170
there with Forrestal you know 1947 to

1143
00:52:27,930 --> 00:52:26,319
1949 to 1950 to all these important

1144
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:27,940
parts of history become extremely

1145
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:29,920
important if you're going to be in

1146
00:52:34,349 --> 00:52:31,930
historian and really understand this

1147
00:52:37,380 --> 00:52:34,359
topic you need to understand the veil of

1148
00:52:40,289 --> 00:52:37,390
secrecy and you need to understand who

1149
00:52:43,289 --> 00:52:40,299
James Forrestal was and for me it was an

1150
00:52:46,289 --> 00:52:43,299
eye-opening experience I learned a lot

1151
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:46,299
and I've even learned more I mean I if

1152
00:52:51,029 --> 00:52:48,130
you think about what was going on in

1153
00:52:52,829 --> 00:52:51,039
that period of time you know in fact

1154
00:52:55,859 --> 00:52:52,839
Linda Howe and I were just on a cruise

1155
00:52:57,690 --> 00:52:55,869
together this UFO cruise that went out

1156
00:52:59,880 --> 00:52:57,700
of San Diego and we're sitting around

1157
00:53:03,049 --> 00:52:59,890
with about 25 people and we were

1158
00:53:08,370 --> 00:53:03,059
thinking okay what was happening between

1159
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:08,380
January and like July of 1947 this was

1160
00:53:13,529 --> 00:53:11,049
right when the height of this the the

1161
00:53:16,019 --> 00:53:13,539
codification of secrecy was starting in

1162
00:53:18,509 --> 00:53:16,029
mj-12 was forming and Forrestal was

1163
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:18,519
moving into his position and you think

1164
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:20,319
about it there were like four or five

1165
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:23,680
major events like in January Admiral

1166
00:53:28,319 --> 00:53:26,079
Byrd right took off and went to

1167
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:28,329
Antarctica I you know of course I don't

1168
00:53:32,220 --> 00:53:30,490
remember this in my life history because

1169
00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:32,230
I wasn't even born yet I wasn't born

1170
00:53:37,859 --> 00:53:34,750
until 1955 but apparently there was a

1171
00:53:42,210 --> 00:53:37,869
lot of hoopla he left with Leica and

1172
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:42,220
Armada to go to you know Antarctica why

1173
00:53:46,259 --> 00:53:44,529
we weren't at war anymore and then

1174
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:46,269
everything gets hushed up in the news

1175
00:53:51,509 --> 00:53:48,640
and he makes this announcement from from

1176
00:53:53,579 --> 00:53:51,519
Chile that he's had a very strange

1177
00:53:55,769 --> 00:53:53,589
experience there and then he comes back

1178
00:53:58,049 --> 00:53:55,779
and never talks about it that was very

1179
00:54:00,440 --> 00:53:58,059
strange and I think he looked lost half

1180
00:54:03,710 --> 00:54:00,450
his fleet he went with 14

1181
00:54:06,290 --> 00:54:03,720
in ships and a like a Navy you know a

1182
00:54:08,540 --> 00:54:06,300
navy carrier and things so that was

1183
00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:08,550
incredible right if he really had an

1184
00:54:14,210 --> 00:54:10,500
encounter down there with UFOs which

1185
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:14,220
everyone thinks then you go to May 1947

1186
00:54:22,910 --> 00:54:17,839
you've got the famous Sakura case right

1187
00:54:24,170 --> 00:54:22,920
and funny women in what year 1947 no

1188
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:24,180
that wasn't a Sakura

1189
00:54:28,099 --> 00:54:26,010
that wasn't Sakura I thought this I

1190
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:28,109
thought that was all the same year then

1191
00:54:33,530 --> 00:54:31,140
you have June 14 and 1947 you've got

1192
00:54:36,170 --> 00:54:33,540
Kenneth Arnold mm-hmm right in the

1193
00:54:39,069 --> 00:54:36,180
Cascade Mountains of course you know he

1194
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:39,079
comes out he's he's an you know an

1195
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:41,250
experienced pilot he knows what he's

1196
00:54:46,130 --> 00:54:44,339
seeing and I think he designed air

1197
00:54:49,940 --> 00:54:46,140
aircraft I think he was an aircraft

1198
00:54:52,609 --> 00:54:49,950
engineer and then you have July 1947 the

1199
00:54:54,829 --> 00:54:52,619
whole Roswell case so Bam Bam Bam Bam

1200
00:55:00,260 --> 00:54:54,839
Bam you have all these things happening

1201
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:00,270
and you think gosh what was going on for

1202
00:55:06,349 --> 00:55:03,359
James what was he being thrown into and

1203
00:55:08,420 --> 00:55:06,359
what was he having to digest we don't

1204
00:55:11,450 --> 00:55:08,430
really go into all these events all

1205
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:11,460
these UFO events in the film it mostly

1206
00:55:16,819 --> 00:55:14,010
just follows James life so you can climb

1207
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:16,829
inside his life and understand who he

1208
00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:19,440
was and I really commend Peter this is

1209
00:55:24,380 --> 00:55:22,020
one of the things that I tried to do

1210
00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:24,390
with the Travis film and Peter just

1211
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:26,040
mentioned it but I think it's very very

1212
00:55:30,620 --> 00:55:28,050
important there are many intelligent

1213
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:30,630
people that won't even begin to digest

1214
00:55:36,829 --> 00:55:33,930
the topic of UFOs because it's been this

1215
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:36,839
you know forbidden topic it's it's a not

1216
00:55:40,849 --> 00:55:39,210
polite dinner conversation right you

1217
00:55:43,250 --> 00:55:40,859
don't go to a cocktail party and start

1218
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:43,260
talking about it you'll be alienated so

1219
00:55:48,290 --> 00:55:45,450
to do something historically accurate

1220
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:48,300
that suggests there might be a difficult

1221
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:51,810
history and passed to someone who should

1222
00:55:57,230 --> 00:55:54,089
be remembered as a real hero in our

1223
00:56:00,440 --> 00:55:57,240
country and is not and was probably

1224
00:56:03,319 --> 00:56:00,450
murdered over this topic I think it

1225
00:56:05,599 --> 00:56:03,329
forces anyone in the general public

1226
00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:05,609
interested in this topic and interested

1227
00:56:10,579 --> 00:56:07,230
in the history to go do their own

1228
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:10,589
digging and and this type of documentary

1229
00:56:14,420 --> 00:56:12,690
can get out to the mainstream

1230
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:14,430
just like the try

1231
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:17,130
this film I did I didn't do a film about

1232
00:56:23,180 --> 00:56:20,490
UFOs I did a film that was about this

1233
00:56:25,339 --> 00:56:23,190
man's personal life and how it was

1234
00:56:27,710 --> 00:56:25,349
destroyed and all the seven loggers

1235
00:56:29,420 --> 00:56:27,720
lives in many ways were destroyed over

1236
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:29,430
having this incident happened to them

1237
00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:31,410
and the film became a bit of a

1238
00:56:36,349 --> 00:56:33,480
breakthrough film I mean we made it into

1239
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:36,359
mainstream festivals that would never

1240
00:56:41,809 --> 00:56:39,450
accept a documentary on UFOs but because

1241
00:56:44,540 --> 00:56:41,819
they what they didn't know who Travis

1242
00:56:46,790 --> 00:56:44,550
was and they watched it a lot of the

1243
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:46,800
festival you know screener said hey I

1244
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:48,569
love this film I love this film I love

1245
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:51,119
this film I wanted in our festival so we

1246
00:56:55,790 --> 00:56:53,490
made it in I think I applied 250 film

1247
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:55,800
festivals I got into 28 and I think I

1248
00:57:01,910 --> 00:56:58,559
won like eight Awards on top of getting

1249
00:57:05,210 --> 00:57:01,920
into the festivals so I think that the

1250
00:57:07,130 --> 00:57:05,220
Forrestal project had that potential and

1251
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:07,140
that's why I sat Peter down and said

1252
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:08,970
look let's do something with this and

1253
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:11,730
actually we dedicated it to Stanton

1254
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:13,470
Friedman oh isn't that great

1255
00:57:19,940 --> 00:57:17,760
I got lost Anton her actually when we

1256
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:19,950
started this in April Stanton was still

1257
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:22,770
alive he had decided to dedicate it to

1258
00:57:27,380 --> 00:57:25,530
him already and that and then when he

1259
00:57:28,190 --> 00:57:27,390
died it was even more important to get

1260
00:57:30,589 --> 00:57:28,200
it out there

1261
00:57:33,289 --> 00:57:30,599
you bought a couple of things first of

1262
00:57:36,170 --> 00:57:33,299
all that was 1964 for the Socorro

1263
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:36,180
incident oh that's no no big deal but I

1264
00:57:40,430 --> 00:57:38,700
do want to and I don't care either one

1265
00:57:42,829 --> 00:57:40,440
of you want to tackle this but I've

1266
00:57:45,079 --> 00:57:42,839
heard you know mj-12 come up a number of

1267
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:45,089
times and that is that's a controversial

1268
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:48,690
topic and it is working whether mj-12

1269
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:53,910
actually exists existed or not and does

1270
00:58:00,010 --> 00:57:55,440
either one of you want to tackle that

1271
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:05,200
another thing that that Stanton Friedman

1272
00:58:13,370 --> 00:58:09,599
was able to establish through a very

1273
00:58:15,770 --> 00:58:13,380
careful extended search of Records

1274
00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:15,780
within the National Archives was

1275
00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:20,510
locating two completely authentic

1276
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,710
independent documents that were

1277
00:58:28,310 --> 00:58:24,480
independent of anything associated with

1278
00:58:33,820 --> 00:58:28,320
UFOs identifying a mj2

1279
00:58:36,650 --> 00:58:33,830
or magic 12 as it sometimes known

1280
00:58:39,020 --> 00:58:36,660
working group a highly secured working

1281
00:58:41,860 --> 00:58:39,030
group within the government with no

1282
00:58:45,140 --> 00:58:41,870
reference to what the group was about

1283
00:58:47,420 --> 00:58:45,150
like many people in the field who have

1284
00:58:50,060 --> 00:58:47,430
studied this material to one degree or

1285
00:58:53,090 --> 00:58:50,070
another I have a lot of problems with a

1286
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:53,100
lot of it again going back to the summer

1287
00:58:59,540 --> 00:58:56,910
of 1987 a eight-page document purporting

1288
00:59:02,000 --> 00:58:59,550
to be a briefing document on Roswell and

1289
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:02,010
associated subjects for then

1290
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:06,660
president-elect Eisenhower identified

1291
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:08,610
this original working group of 12

1292
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:12,720
individuals around Truman however in the

1293
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:16,650
intervening decade since 87 I'm sure no

1294
00:59:22,610 --> 00:59:19,440
less than several hundred documents

1295
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:22,620
purporting to be majestic 12 or mj-12

1296
00:59:28,940 --> 00:59:25,440
documents have come out I agree with

1297
00:59:32,180 --> 00:59:28,950
Stan's conclusions that the initial 8

1298
00:59:34,730 --> 00:59:32,190
page briefing document and the one page

1299
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:34,740
attached letter from Truman to Forrestal

1300
00:59:41,420 --> 00:59:38,010
are authentic and I go to some pains in

1301
00:59:44,470 --> 00:59:41,430
the documentary to make sure that one

1302
00:59:48,590 --> 00:59:44,480
can see how they fit letter-perfect

1303
00:59:52,310 --> 00:59:48,600
aspects of them with the known timeline

1304
00:59:57,170 --> 00:59:52,320
and then make sure that in each case if

1305
00:59:59,780 --> 00:59:57,180
they were proved to be not authentic the

1306
01:00:01,940 --> 00:59:59,790
letter and the briefing document that

1307
01:00:04,250 --> 01:00:01,950
within that exact same time frame we

1308
01:00:08,570 --> 01:00:04,260
have other material to draw on that

1309
01:00:10,250 --> 01:00:08,580
supports the same conclusions so I do go

1310
01:00:12,410 --> 01:00:10,260
on at the end because I know I'm talking

1311
01:00:13,940 --> 01:00:12,420
hopefully primarily due primarily to

1312
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:13,950
folks who are not involved in the

1313
01:00:22,460 --> 01:00:17,610
subject a very brief summation on mj-12

1314
01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:22,470
in no way is this documentary about it

1315
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:25,110
it simply refers to it and even in the

1316
01:00:30,620 --> 01:00:28,050
brief treatment of an hour based in more

1317
01:00:33,530 --> 01:00:30,630
than 30 years of investigation five

1318
01:00:36,890 --> 01:00:33,540
members of the 12 come up playing roles

1319
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:36,900
directly involved with forestalls life

1320
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:38,720
and interfacing with him personally

1321
01:00:45,410 --> 01:00:41,940
throughout the narrative

1322
01:00:47,450 --> 01:00:45,420
I'll say in the Travis film we actually

1323
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:47,460
have Stanton speaking about a

1324
01:00:52,910 --> 01:00:49,770
significance to archive he also came

1325
01:00:55,910 --> 01:00:52,920
across where it was Donald Menzel

1326
01:00:59,809 --> 01:00:55,920
writing President Kennedy and Mendel

1327
01:01:02,390 --> 01:00:59,819
says once Kennedy comes into office

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:02,400
intellect Kennedy I'm sorry what's the

1329
01:01:05,839 --> 01:01:04,290
president elected Kennedy at that point

1330
01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:05,849
when Mendel was writing the letter

1331
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:09,300
Mendel says when we are properly cleared

1332
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:12,450
I can tell you more and it was about I

1333
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:14,569
believe it was making reference to

1334
01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:18,170
unidentified craft or things you know a

1335
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:22,500
high level you know secret space related

1336
01:01:30,020 --> 01:01:26,400
topic I don't remember the exact title

1337
01:01:32,210 --> 01:01:30,030
of the document but Stanton does refer

1338
01:01:34,339 --> 01:01:32,220
to this yes he's talked about it on my

1339
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:34,349
show a few times yeah yeah it's done

1340
01:01:39,710 --> 01:01:37,650
Stanton so that is you know there are

1341
01:01:42,260 --> 01:01:39,720
these pieces that become like these

1342
01:01:45,890 --> 01:01:42,270
smoking guns and that's all we have

1343
01:01:47,930 --> 01:01:45,900
Martin and you know a you can when we

1344
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:47,940
speculate we have to be very clear that

1345
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:50,160
we are speculating but when we're just

1346
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:53,130
bringing you facts then you can go do

1347
01:01:56,329 --> 01:01:55,050
your own digging and research based on

1348
01:01:58,880 --> 01:01:56,339
those facts and that's what I really

1349
01:02:02,569 --> 01:01:58,890
like about the Forrestal project because

1350
01:02:04,730 --> 01:02:02,579
Peter lays out the facts for you and he

1351
01:02:08,660 --> 01:02:04,740
actually has and he's willing to send it

1352
01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:08,670
to anybody like a 22-page bibliography

1353
01:02:13,130 --> 01:02:11,160
list he wanted to put it in the credits

1354
01:02:14,750 --> 01:02:13,140
of the film and Bob and I said you know

1355
01:02:17,089 --> 01:02:14,760
people just aren't gonna sit there for

1356
01:02:19,700 --> 01:02:17,099
15 minutes and watch you know these

1357
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:19,710
credits roll it's not that long it's

1358
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,650
it's 35 separate items but I hear ya

1359
01:02:27,700 --> 01:02:25,200
okay so I'm exaggerating but still you

1360
01:02:29,599 --> 01:02:27,710
know people can go look at this

1361
01:02:31,970 --> 01:02:29,609
bibliography and start to do their own

1362
01:02:33,980 --> 01:02:31,980
research he doesn't speculate in this

1363
01:02:36,170 --> 01:02:33,990
it's all based on this happened this

1364
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:36,180
happened this happened and isn't it an

1365
01:02:41,210 --> 01:02:39,210
interesting mystery that there are

1366
01:02:43,460 --> 01:02:41,220
synchronicity between these events you

1367
01:02:45,740 --> 01:02:43,470
know he kind of asks you if there is and

1368
01:02:46,790 --> 01:02:45,750
he asks you at the end of the film don't

1369
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:46,800
you think we should really be

1370
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:49,440
remembering Forrestal in a better light

1371
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:51,210
you know he's all but completely

1372
01:02:59,880 --> 01:02:55,510
forgotten hmm and also well

1373
01:03:04,470 --> 01:02:59,890
you know that the sub line on this movie

1374
01:03:05,790 --> 01:03:04,480
is his extraordinary life and mysterious

1375
01:03:09,390 --> 01:03:05,800
death or something like that I mean this

1376
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:09,400
is death yes his death so what about his

1377
01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:12,730
his what about his death I know he fell

1378
01:03:18,180 --> 01:03:14,590
from the I forgot what floor it was

1379
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:18,190
whether he jumped but if I remember

1380
01:03:25,470 --> 01:03:21,610
right I recall wasn't someone visiting

1381
01:03:27,660 --> 01:03:25,480
him right before that happened yes well

1382
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:27,670
Peter Peter can speak to it better you

1383
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:29,920
know and more accurately with the facts

1384
01:03:36,020 --> 01:03:32,530
than I can but yes I go ahead computer

1385
01:03:38,930 --> 01:03:36,030
says you know the case that I present

1386
01:03:43,740 --> 01:03:38,940
although I think it's very compelling

1387
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:43,750
obviously I don't have a smoking gun it

1388
01:03:51,210 --> 01:03:47,290
is all circumstantial evidence but

1389
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:51,220
extraordinarily interlocking people have

1390
01:04:00,120 --> 01:03:54,370
gone to prison with less evidence

1391
01:04:03,810 --> 01:04:00,130
presented in court proceedings to sum it

1392
01:04:07,230 --> 01:04:03,820
up because it's it's quite a series of

1393
01:04:11,460 --> 01:04:07,240
interconnected events part of my basic

1394
01:04:14,460 --> 01:04:11,470
premise is Forrestal who had I'll call

1395
01:04:17,550 --> 01:04:14,470
it a character flaw of never seeming to

1396
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:17,560
fully be able to confide completely with

1397
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:20,710
another person it was evident in his

1398
01:04:31,140 --> 01:04:24,510
many romantic affairs very kennedy-esque

1399
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:31,150
but fairly brusque he he was bottled up

1400
01:04:37,830 --> 01:04:35,680
emotionally and less than nine weeks or

1401
01:04:41,010 --> 01:04:37,840
so following whatever it was that

1402
01:04:43,260 --> 01:04:41,020
crashed the plains of San August and

1403
01:04:46,770 --> 01:04:43,270
some miles from a little town called

1404
01:04:50,970 --> 01:04:46,780
Roswell New Mexico he became the first

1405
01:04:54,270 --> 01:04:50,980
secretary of defense a position he

1406
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:54,280
created he is the architect of our

1407
01:05:00,480 --> 01:04:58,210
modern Department of Defense it was not

1408
01:05:03,570 --> 01:05:00,490
put together by a committee but at Harry

1409
01:05:05,370 --> 01:05:03,580
Truman's request by this one man and he

1410
01:05:07,710 --> 01:05:05,380
became the leader of it if one looks at

1411
01:05:09,089 --> 01:05:07,720
the description the job description for

1412
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:09,099
Secretary of the

1413
01:05:13,020 --> 01:05:11,200
all the weight of the world rests on

1414
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:13,030
your shoulders at least allegorically

1415
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:15,490
you know everything that the president

1416
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:18,480
knows about classified information and

1417
01:05:23,609 --> 01:05:22,000
on the day that he was sworn in very

1418
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:23,619
very suddenly

1419
01:05:31,170 --> 01:05:27,520
for reasons coinciding with the first

1420
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:31,180
published secret report on these truly

1421
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:35,170
anomalous craft it was his

1422
01:05:40,650 --> 01:05:38,050
responsibility to get to the bottom of

1423
01:05:48,210 --> 01:05:40,660
things to find out what was going on to

1424
01:05:51,450 --> 01:05:48,220
affect some kind of interaction or be

1425
01:05:54,839 --> 01:05:51,460
able to report to the president and his

1426
01:05:56,460 --> 01:05:54,849
advisors what they were up against for

1427
01:05:59,819 --> 01:05:56,470
many of us if we have a bad day at the

1428
01:06:02,370 --> 01:05:59,829
office or the equivalent you go home you

1429
01:06:04,730 --> 01:06:02,380
know watch some TV pet the dog have

1430
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:04,740
dinner and do a better job the next day

1431
01:06:10,890 --> 01:06:07,839
Forrestal carried it all with him he had

1432
01:06:13,079 --> 01:06:10,900
a habit of personalizing his personal

1433
01:06:18,030 --> 01:06:13,089
failures and his professional failures

1434
01:06:21,630 --> 01:06:18,040
as well as his successes and we watch on

1435
01:06:24,690 --> 01:06:21,640
the timeline as UFO activity became

1436
01:06:28,530 --> 01:06:24,700
becomes more virulent and he is unable

1437
01:06:31,380 --> 01:06:28,540
to give any satisfactory answer to the

1438
01:06:34,589 --> 01:06:31,390
president even heading the largest and

1439
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:34,599
most powerful defense establishment in

1440
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:39,520
the history of the post Atlantean world

1441
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:42,730
you know in in what will laughingly call

1442
01:06:51,180 --> 01:06:47,490
modern times on the very day that he

1443
01:06:53,849 --> 01:06:51,190
steps down as Secretary of Defense and

1444
01:06:56,700 --> 01:06:53,859
the second secretary of defense a man

1445
01:06:59,700 --> 01:06:56,710
named Lois Kay Johnson is sworn in on

1446
01:07:02,760 --> 01:06:59,710
that afternoon he has a profound and

1447
01:07:04,109 --> 01:07:02,770
very public nervous breakdown I'm not a

1448
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:04,119
mental health professional but I've

1449
01:07:07,470 --> 01:07:05,770
networked with a tremendous number of

1450
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:07,480
them over the decades when you see a

1451
01:07:13,799 --> 01:07:09,010
part of the round what do you mean by

1452
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:13,809
public that the manifestations of the

1453
01:07:20,339 --> 01:07:17,530
breakdown were apparent to everybody

1454
01:07:22,140 --> 01:07:20,349
assembled at his change-of-command

1455
01:07:24,749 --> 01:07:22,150
ceremony

1456
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:24,759
the President had just pinned whatever

1457
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,650
the presidential medal of freedom or

1458
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:28,559
whatever the highest civilian decoration

1459
01:07:36,539 --> 01:07:32,410
an American citizen can get on his lapel

1460
01:07:39,359 --> 01:07:36,549
and very movingly and for me incredibly

1461
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:39,369
so Jennifer was able to find film

1462
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:42,609
footage from that afternoon in the Oval

1463
01:07:49,650 --> 01:07:45,249
Office I had only had some stills up

1464
01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:49,660
until then stills and and news photos

1465
01:07:56,460 --> 01:07:53,160
and here we have the situation where

1466
01:07:58,230 --> 01:07:56,470
either leading up to or you know doing

1467
01:08:02,299 --> 01:07:58,240
it on camera and then doing it for the

1468
01:08:05,549 --> 01:08:02,309
public he pins this medal on his lapel

1469
01:08:07,470 --> 01:08:05,559
people in the audience who were you know

1470
01:08:08,849 --> 01:08:07,480
very moved by this many of whom went on

1471
01:08:11,819 --> 01:08:08,859
to become movers and shakers and

1472
01:08:15,379 --> 01:08:11,829
government themselves observed that

1473
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:15,389
after Truman said you deserve it Jim

1474
01:08:21,539 --> 01:08:18,250
Forrestal stepped to the microphone and

1475
01:08:25,499 --> 01:08:21,549
said quote unquote it's beyond my and

1476
01:08:30,809 --> 01:08:25,509
just tailed off and never finished the

1477
01:08:33,419 --> 01:08:30,819
sentence I referred to Clark Clifford at

1478
01:08:34,559 --> 01:08:33,429
that moment an intern at the Pentagon

1479
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:34,569
who went on to become an attorney

1480
01:08:39,539 --> 01:08:37,600
general from his memoirs and boy I read

1481
01:08:42,450 --> 01:08:39,549
everybody's memoirs over the decades

1482
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:42,460
who knew or interfaced what Forrestal it

1483
01:08:46,939 --> 01:08:44,080
was apparent to everyone in the room

1484
01:08:49,890 --> 01:08:46,949
that something was terribly wrong

1485
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:49,900
shortly thereafter Forrestal was seen

1486
01:08:54,180 --> 01:08:52,480
speaking with the then secretary for the

1487
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:54,190
Air Force Stuart Symington who went on

1488
01:08:58,320 --> 01:08:56,770
to become a senator and who was

1489
01:09:01,260 --> 01:08:58,330
something of a pain in the ass to

1490
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:01,270
Forrestal in pushing for more money for

1491
01:09:06,180 --> 01:09:03,120
the Air Force and things whatever

1492
01:09:09,300 --> 01:09:06,190
Symington said to him was so disquieting

1493
01:09:11,249 --> 01:09:09,310
that people were concerned for arsenal

1494
01:09:13,410 --> 01:09:11,259
then left the room and they couldn't

1495
01:09:16,709 --> 01:09:13,420
find him for some time after when they

1496
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:16,719
did he was in his old office sitting at

1497
01:09:22,530 --> 01:09:20,560
his desk staring at the wall repeating

1498
01:09:25,379 --> 01:09:22,540
the phrase seemingly oblivious when the

1499
01:09:28,050 --> 01:09:25,389
door opened when they found him you are

1500
01:09:32,990 --> 01:09:28,060
a loyal fellow you are a loyal fellow

1501
01:09:35,820 --> 01:09:33,000
maralell fellow he was ultimately

1502
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:35,830
outside the Pentagon where he was

1503
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:36,409
observed

1504
01:09:43,419 --> 01:09:38,810
to be completely disoriented by the

1505
01:09:46,300 --> 01:09:43,429
chauffeur to Vannevar Bush who took him

1506
01:09:47,169 --> 01:09:46,310
back to forestalls townhouse in

1507
01:09:49,780 --> 01:09:47,179
Georgetown

1508
01:09:53,620 --> 01:09:49,790
he called his closest friend and advisor

1509
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:53,630
a banker named Ferdinand ever stat who

1510
01:09:59,200 --> 01:09:56,449
had cut the introduction in the 1930s

1511
01:10:00,729 --> 01:09:59,210
between Forrestal and Roosevelt when

1512
01:10:03,939 --> 01:10:00,739
Forrestal went into government service

1513
01:10:06,850 --> 01:10:03,949
and then came over after Forrestal had

1514
01:10:09,010 --> 01:10:06,860
called him very upset very disturbed by

1515
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:09,020
his appearance and Forrestal told him a

1516
01:10:12,580 --> 01:10:11,090
number of times that he felt his whole

1517
01:10:15,250 --> 01:10:12,590
life had been a failure and he was

1518
01:10:17,500 --> 01:10:15,260
considering killing himself shocking

1519
01:10:18,879 --> 01:10:17,510
words here from a friend especially on a

1520
01:10:21,010 --> 01:10:18,889
day where you've just been honored by

1521
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:21,020
the President of the United States at

1522
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:23,810
that point he asked him what it was and

1523
01:10:31,959 --> 01:10:26,690
he said I can't tell you it exacerbates

1524
01:10:35,229 --> 01:10:31,969
from there two friends one Robert Lovett

1525
01:10:40,590 --> 01:10:35,239
who went on to become a Secretary of

1526
01:10:43,330 --> 01:10:40,600
Defense himself and the other ever stat

1527
01:10:46,510 --> 01:10:43,340
got him on a plane a private plane and

1528
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:46,520
down to hoho be sound Florida

1529
01:10:53,830 --> 01:10:51,290
wherever stat had in a state and ever

1530
01:10:56,709 --> 01:10:53,840
stat was completely undone by forestalls

1531
01:10:58,379 --> 01:10:56,719
appearance he called his stay at his

1532
01:11:01,209 --> 01:10:58,389
home the worst three days of his life

1533
01:11:03,580 --> 01:11:01,219
I'm sorry to say I documented for us all

1534
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:03,590
attempting to take his life several

1535
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:07,489
times from there he is institutionalized

1536
01:11:12,729 --> 01:11:11,530
at Bethesda Naval Hospital kept under a

1537
01:11:15,370 --> 01:11:12,739
three-shift

1538
01:11:18,010 --> 01:11:15,380
24-hour day marine guard captive Lee

1539
01:11:21,780 --> 01:11:18,020
sedated the first few weeks but then

1540
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:21,790
turned over to the good quality Naval

1541
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:25,370
mental health staff there who began to

1542
01:11:30,899 --> 01:11:28,400
work with him in a prescribed manner for

1543
01:11:34,270 --> 01:11:30,909
somebody with this level of depression

1544
01:11:36,729 --> 01:11:34,280
1949 and having read the hospital

1545
01:11:39,459 --> 01:11:36,739
records having read accounts by

1546
01:11:42,370 --> 01:11:39,469
everybody that went to visit him there

1547
01:11:46,030 --> 01:11:42,380
was no question in anyone's mind that he

1548
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:46,040
was coming back he was recovering he had

1549
01:11:51,970 --> 01:11:48,650
gained weight that he had lost he had

1550
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:51,980
put forward a will to live again he's

1551
01:11:57,990 --> 01:11:54,080
taking pride in his appearance and a

1552
01:12:00,520 --> 01:11:58,000
release date was set of May 22nd his

1553
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:00,530
brother had arranged to pick him up that

1554
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:03,290
morning at the hospital where Forrestal

1555
01:12:10,930 --> 01:12:07,010
would then go to a friend's estate to

1556
01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:10,940
complete his recovery in quiet

1557
01:12:16,450 --> 01:12:13,520
controlled atmosphere and if we're to

1558
01:12:22,350 --> 01:12:16,460
believe the official account a few hours

1559
01:12:26,140 --> 01:12:22,360
before he was set to be released his

1560
01:12:29,050 --> 01:12:26,150
attendant who was brand new allegedly

1561
01:12:31,180 --> 01:12:29,060
one of the Marines on that shift who had

1562
01:12:33,970 --> 01:12:31,190
become extremely close to mr. Forrestal

1563
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:33,980
so much so that Forrestal had talked

1564
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:36,290
about hiring him when he left

1565
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:38,090
developing something of a father-son

1566
01:12:44,670 --> 01:12:40,370
relationship he didn't appear for work

1567
01:12:46,660 --> 01:12:44,680
that evening the rumor was he was drunk

1568
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:46,670
nothing could have been further from the

1569
01:12:50,020 --> 01:12:47,810
truth

1570
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:50,030
an attendant was assigned to mr.

1571
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:51,650
Forrest's all looked at him at 1:30 in

1572
01:12:58,990 --> 01:12:54,380
the morning seemed to be sleeping at a

1573
01:13:03,630 --> 01:12:59,000
quarter of 2:00 was copying a poem out

1574
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:06,130
declined a sleeping pill checked on him

1575
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:07,730
five minutes later and he was gone

1576
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:10,130
allegedly the attendant forgot to lock

1577
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:12,890
the door Forrestal goes from looking

1578
01:13:21,550 --> 01:13:17,440
forward to release and being absolutely

1579
01:13:23,740 --> 01:13:21,560
ready for it as documented by hospital

1580
01:13:29,140 --> 01:13:23,750
records and everybody that saw him even

1581
01:13:31,690 --> 01:13:29,150
his physicians to a sudden state of

1582
01:13:33,310 --> 01:13:31,700
suicidal depression goes into the room

1583
01:13:37,060 --> 01:13:33,320
across the hall which is an efficiency

1584
01:13:39,700 --> 01:13:37,070
kitchen with an unsecured window then

1585
01:13:42,130 --> 01:13:39,710
for some reason takes the sash off his

1586
01:13:45,370 --> 01:13:42,140
bathrobe ties one end tightly around his

1587
01:13:46,780 --> 01:13:45,380
neck lowers himself out the window if

1588
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:46,790
we're to believe this changes his mind

1589
01:13:51,310 --> 01:13:49,490
as indicated by numerous fingernail

1590
01:13:53,860 --> 01:13:51,320
scratches on the outside of the window

1591
01:13:57,630 --> 01:13:53,870
loses his grip and dies of suicide and

1592
01:14:02,320 --> 01:13:57,640
the nation goes into mourning the

1593
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:02,330
investigation that the Navy did was it

1594
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:04,130
be funny if it hadn't been so insulting

1595
01:14:10,090 --> 01:14:07,850
essentially what we were we the public

1596
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:10,100
saw was the Navy covering its own behind

1597
01:14:14,860 --> 01:14:12,890
in every possible way and it wasn't for

1598
01:14:17,860 --> 01:14:14,870
quite a number of years not until the

1599
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:17,870
early 2000s at the actual Willa cuts

1600
01:14:23,350 --> 01:14:20,810
report admiral Willa Cutts being the

1601
01:14:26,530 --> 01:14:23,360
head of the institution at the time was

1602
01:14:28,330 --> 01:14:26,540
released quite fascinating and that is

1603
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:28,340
where I go into a great deal of detail

1604
01:14:34,450 --> 01:14:31,760
about the evidences the proofs the

1605
01:14:39,460 --> 01:14:34,460
circumstances that I feel make a case

1606
01:14:42,010 --> 01:14:39,470
for murder why was he killed this is

1607
01:14:45,340 --> 01:14:42,020
purely theoretical but for me it holds

1608
01:14:47,740 --> 01:14:45,350
water I think it's fair to say that the

1609
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:47,750
three of us and everybody in your

1610
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:51,010
audience included not a single one of us

1611
01:14:57,460 --> 01:14:54,230
don't know somebody who has been in

1612
01:15:01,180 --> 01:14:57,470
therapy seen a psychologist seen a

1613
01:15:03,490 --> 01:15:01,190
psychiatrist met with the counselor or

1614
01:15:07,450 --> 01:15:03,500
had somebody in their family do so or

1615
01:15:10,540 --> 01:15:07,460
knew somebody who did in 1949 it was the

1616
01:15:13,630 --> 01:15:10,550
exact opposite unless you were maybe a

1617
01:15:15,670 --> 01:15:13,640
member of society and had gone to Vienna

1618
01:15:18,970 --> 01:15:15,680
to be analyzed by a protege of Freud's

1619
01:15:21,460 --> 01:15:18,980
no one knew anyone who had been in

1620
01:15:25,450 --> 01:15:21,470
therapy and as far as nervous breakdowns

1621
01:15:29,530 --> 01:15:25,460
go from the perception of the extreme

1622
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:29,540
alpha-male club around Truman only girls

1623
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:32,450
had nervous breakdowns certainly not a

1624
01:15:38,230 --> 01:15:35,090
tough guy and certainly not the ultimate

1625
01:15:40,150 --> 01:15:38,240
alpha male in their circle who aside

1626
01:15:43,990 --> 01:15:40,160
from being a scholar had read the

1627
01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:44,000
classics was a competitive level golfer

1628
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:46,490
and tennis player a passionate amateur

1629
01:15:51,820 --> 01:15:48,890
boxer had exhibited tremendous courage

1630
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:51,830
during his run as secretary of Navy

1631
01:15:58,000 --> 01:15:55,520
unlike previous secretaries of Navy was

1632
01:15:59,740 --> 01:15:58,010
put himself in harm's way repeatedly was

1633
01:16:01,870 --> 01:15:59,750
at the Battle of Leyte Gulf at the

1634
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:01,880
Battle of Iwo Jima and a number of

1635
01:16:10,570 --> 01:16:05,770
others but he completely broke and I

1636
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:10,580
believe fervently that for these men who

1637
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:14,330
advised Truman the idea that this man

1638
01:16:19,060 --> 01:16:16,130
who knew every

1639
01:16:22,060 --> 01:16:19,070
we're all the allegoric allegorical

1640
01:16:24,370 --> 01:16:22,070
bodies were buried everything about the

1641
01:16:27,210 --> 01:16:24,380
cover-up of the UFO mystery if he

1642
01:16:29,950 --> 01:16:27,220
recovered whatever the heck that meant

1643
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:29,960
couldn't he possibly have a relapse and

1644
01:16:35,890 --> 01:16:33,170
if he had a relapse might and he say

1645
01:16:38,620 --> 01:16:35,900
anything about anything to anyone even

1646
01:16:40,990 --> 01:16:38,630
in confidence and that could not be

1647
01:16:43,830 --> 01:16:41,000
allowed and it took me years Martin to

1648
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:43,840
get to the point where my views had

1649
01:16:51,340 --> 01:16:47,090
evolved enough through extended deep

1650
01:16:54,460 --> 01:16:51,350
reading of many memoirs by people who

1651
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:54,470
knew Forrest all of all of his published

1652
01:16:59,380 --> 01:16:56,810
papers the wonderful Forrestal dial and

1653
01:17:01,420 --> 01:16:59,390
Diaries give us an idea of what a keen

1654
01:17:05,140 --> 01:17:01,430
observer he was of his times and the

1655
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:05,150
people around him that James Forrestal

1656
01:17:10,510 --> 01:17:08,090
understood this as clearly as he ever

1657
01:17:12,730 --> 01:17:10,520
understood anything in his life and the

1658
01:17:15,190 --> 01:17:12,740
Greek tragedy part of the story for me

1659
01:17:18,970 --> 01:17:15,200
is once he could no longer hold it

1660
01:17:20,830 --> 01:17:18,980
together I'm not insinuating in any way

1661
01:17:24,730 --> 01:17:20,840
that the nervous breakdown just happened

1662
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:24,740
out of nowhere in late March of 1947 on

1663
01:17:29,980 --> 01:17:27,170
the day that he stepped down from that

1664
01:17:32,410 --> 01:17:29,990
very high office it obviously had been

1665
01:17:35,710 --> 01:17:32,420
building up but not being manifested in

1666
01:17:36,580 --> 01:17:35,720
a public way once the reins of power had

1667
01:17:39,700 --> 01:17:36,590
been turned over

1668
01:17:43,180 --> 01:17:39,710
he literally collapsed that afternoon he

1669
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:43,190
knew that they felt he couldn't be

1670
01:17:48,940 --> 01:17:46,130
trusted anymore and I think it's it's a

1671
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:48,950
tragic moment in American history and a

1672
01:17:56,260 --> 01:17:52,610
mark of his character that he got it it

1673
01:17:58,960 --> 01:17:56,270
was nothing personal as I sometimes say

1674
01:18:00,100 --> 01:17:58,970
about a mob hit man about to give you

1675
01:18:02,140 --> 01:18:00,110
two in the back of the head with the

1676
01:18:04,930 --> 01:18:02,150
silenced 22 it's nothing personal just

1677
01:18:07,180 --> 01:18:04,940
business he knew they wanted him dead

1678
01:18:10,660 --> 01:18:07,190
and he tried to do it but he was stopped

1679
01:18:13,210 --> 01:18:10,670
and then he went into the hospital and

1680
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:13,220
after some weeks began to respond to

1681
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:14,290
therapy

1682
01:18:19,390 --> 01:18:16,610
develop his will to live again and

1683
01:18:21,490 --> 01:18:19,400
that's when it became necessary to end

1684
01:18:23,770 --> 01:18:21,500
his life for him and the circumstances

1685
01:18:28,630 --> 01:18:23,780
surrounding is going out that window or

1686
01:18:29,410 --> 01:18:28,640
by turns tragic infuriating fascinating

1687
01:18:34,260 --> 01:18:29,420
heart

1688
01:18:36,459 --> 01:18:34,270
breaking and enraging interesting we are

1689
01:18:38,740 --> 01:18:36,469
we're going to take calls if anyone

1690
01:18:42,870 --> 01:18:38,750
would like to call in and that number is

1691
01:18:46,630 --> 01:18:42,880
8 5 kg are a live or eight five five

1692
01:18:48,729 --> 01:18:46,640
four seven two five four eight three

1693
01:18:52,930 --> 01:18:48,739
that numbers up on the screen if you're

1694
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:52,940
watching YouTube so are there people how

1695
01:18:57,580 --> 01:18:55,370
were there people right away that were

1696
01:18:59,430 --> 01:18:57,590
saying that there's more to this than

1697
01:19:03,189 --> 01:18:59,440
just someone jumping out the window

1698
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:03,199
yes forestalls brother and a number of

1699
01:19:07,810 --> 01:19:05,570
very close friends maintain from the

1700
01:19:11,020 --> 01:19:07,820
beginning that he had been murdered

1701
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:11,030
by very powerful people in the American

1702
01:19:18,250 --> 01:19:14,150
government at the time but they and

1703
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:18,260
again forestalls brother was no crazy

1704
01:19:21,850 --> 01:19:19,730
man or conspiracies

1705
01:19:25,209 --> 01:19:21,860
he was able to put the pieces together

1706
01:19:29,590 --> 01:19:25,219
as for people close to him in the early

1707
01:19:34,570 --> 01:19:29,600
60s 63 64 a scholar at the University of

1708
01:19:38,229 --> 01:19:34,580
California dr. Arnold Rogo professor of

1709
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:38,239
history wrote a very compelling book a

1710
01:19:48,450 --> 01:19:42,410
kind of psychiatric profile of Forrestal

1711
01:19:50,709 --> 01:19:48,460
and he actually interviewed Truman and

1712
01:19:55,350 --> 01:19:50,719
the doctors who had worked with him at

1713
01:19:58,890 --> 01:19:55,360
the hospital loved it

1714
01:20:02,050 --> 01:19:58,900
the people who were closest to him and

1715
01:20:05,020 --> 01:20:02,060
in the book which is simply you know a

1716
01:20:09,150 --> 01:20:05,030
straight look at his life from that

1717
01:20:13,870 --> 01:20:09,160
perspective I'm paraphrasing but he says

1718
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:13,880
you know there are people who around who

1719
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:15,199
were close to Forrestal who are

1720
01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:17,600
convinced that he was murdered and then

1721
01:20:22,870 --> 01:20:19,760
he goes on to set aside a very

1722
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:22,880
well-written paragraph about that being

1723
01:20:27,189 --> 01:20:25,010
the possible case and then goes on to

1724
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:27,199
never discuss it again in the book but

1725
01:20:30,669 --> 01:20:29,090
yes there were people close to him who

1726
01:20:32,850 --> 01:20:30,679
were convinced that he was murdered

1727
01:20:35,979 --> 01:20:32,860
from the day he went out that window

1728
01:20:38,530 --> 01:20:35,989
there's also the story of the Monsignor

1729
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:38,540
who was trying to get to see him and

1730
01:20:43,090 --> 01:20:40,730
Forrestal was trying to see him to his

1731
01:20:45,370 --> 01:20:43,100
priests and the more

1732
01:20:48,070 --> 01:20:45,380
that it was announced that he died and

1733
01:20:50,890 --> 01:20:48,080
orderly ran up to him in the lobby of

1734
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:50,900
the hospital where they were making

1735
01:20:57,400 --> 01:20:53,810
announcements about his death and the

1736
01:20:59,200 --> 01:20:57,410
orderly whispered in Monsignors ear you

1737
01:21:03,970 --> 01:20:59,210
know that he was murdered don't you when

1738
01:21:07,540 --> 01:21:03,980
men disappears words to that effect for

1739
01:21:10,690 --> 01:21:07,550
sure and Jennifer's right on the money

1740
01:21:14,940 --> 01:21:10,700
Monsignor Maurice JC he was a very

1741
01:21:18,100 --> 01:21:14,950
well-liked and very influential Catholic

1742
01:21:22,060 --> 01:21:18,110
priest who ministered to some of the

1743
01:21:23,940 --> 01:21:22,070
most powerful and best-known elected

1744
01:21:27,790 --> 01:21:23,950
officials who happen to be Catholic and

1745
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:27,800
the first call that secretary Forrestal

1746
01:21:33,370 --> 01:21:31,010
made from Bethesda Naval facility once

1747
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:33,380
he had permission to use the phone was

1748
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:38,090
to she and the gist of the call as she

1749
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:40,850
he recalled later in life was as a

1750
01:21:44,410 --> 01:21:42,770
Catholic he had strayed from the faith

1751
01:21:47,110 --> 01:21:44,420
and I think that's putting it mildly

1752
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:47,120
and wanted the Monsignors help in

1753
01:21:53,530 --> 01:21:49,850
helping him to reconnect with his

1754
01:21:55,480 --> 01:21:53,540
Catholicism needless to say this became

1755
01:21:58,480 --> 01:21:55,490
a priority for the Monsignor this man

1756
01:22:00,250 --> 01:21:58,490
had served his country in so many ways

1757
01:22:02,980 --> 01:22:00,260
and was so popular with the American

1758
01:22:05,710 --> 01:22:02,990
public and that afternoon he made his

1759
01:22:11,530 --> 01:22:05,720
first appointment to visit him between

1760
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:11,540
that call and that that brief exchanged

1761
01:22:18,430 --> 01:22:15,440
that that moment in the lobby of the the

1762
01:22:19,690 --> 01:22:18,440
hospital the morning he went out the

1763
01:22:21,910 --> 01:22:19,700
window

1764
01:22:23,890 --> 01:22:21,920
the Monsignor had come to the hospital

1765
01:22:27,340 --> 01:22:23,900
made appointment to see Forrestal I

1766
01:22:30,010 --> 01:22:27,350
think six separate times and each time

1767
01:22:32,980 --> 01:22:30,020
was told he's sleeping he's in therapy

1768
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:32,990
can't see you now and ultimately I think

1769
01:22:42,310 --> 01:22:38,960
two days before the murder he was seen

1770
01:22:44,710 --> 01:22:42,320
by the secretary of Navy and my senses

1771
01:22:47,020 --> 01:22:44,720
he blew his top at him and the secretary

1772
01:22:50,350 --> 01:22:47,030
of Navy made the call to the head of

1773
01:22:53,290 --> 01:22:50,360
Bethesda was assured that the Monsignor

1774
01:22:57,040 --> 01:22:53,300
would see him and soon but obviously not

1775
01:22:58,900 --> 01:22:57,050
soon enough interesting we have some of

1776
01:23:02,950 --> 01:22:58,910
calling in so as soon as that screen

1777
01:23:05,370 --> 01:23:02,960
will we'll take that call but so its

1778
01:23:09,700 --> 01:23:05,380
I've defined it and interesting that his

1779
01:23:10,540 --> 01:23:09,710
his brother felt that way but also if I

1780
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:10,550
recall

1781
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:13,280
wasn't we have few people calling in so

1782
01:23:18,580 --> 01:23:14,690
we'll be taking those calls in just a

1783
01:23:20,830 --> 01:23:18,590
minute but didn't he feel or this could

1784
01:23:22,150 --> 01:23:20,840
have been part of paranoia course but

1785
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:22,160
didn't he feel that people were

1786
01:23:32,470 --> 01:23:27,290
following him oh yes the last few weeks

1787
01:23:34,750 --> 01:23:32,480
of his life he was exhibiting actually

1788
01:23:37,480 --> 01:23:34,760
the last days before he was

1789
01:23:42,810 --> 01:23:37,490
institutionalized primarily from the

1790
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:42,820
account of one of his house servants

1791
01:23:48,820 --> 01:23:45,410
that he was doubly concerned with people

1792
01:23:50,770 --> 01:23:48,830
being on the property with recording

1793
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:50,780
devices in the walls

1794
01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:53,930
the Navy checked it out assured him that

1795
01:24:00,540 --> 01:23:55,520
that wasn't the case that his line

1796
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:00,550
wasn't tapped he called J Edgar Hoover

1797
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:02,890
who was not at the office at the time

1798
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:06,530
did not call back after Hoover returned

1799
01:24:14,230 --> 01:24:12,650
the call but yes I'm reminded though of

1800
01:24:16,060 --> 01:24:14,240
the great old phrase you don't have to

1801
01:24:19,270 --> 01:24:16,070
be a paranoid to know that somebody is

1802
01:24:22,180 --> 01:24:19,280
following it there was obvious attention

1803
01:24:25,690 --> 01:24:22,190
on him by people more and more concerned

1804
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:25,700
about his state certainly and then at

1805
01:24:31,150 --> 01:24:28,250
all you know seiyya really spiraled out

1806
01:24:34,540 --> 01:24:31,160
of control for him Wow okay well we have

1807
01:24:39,660 --> 01:24:34,550
Steven and he's calling from Washington

1808
01:24:43,750 --> 01:24:39,670
Steven welcome to the show hi guys

1809
01:24:46,510 --> 01:24:43,760
Washington DC or Washington State why do

1810
01:24:48,940 --> 01:24:46,520
you today ah welcome to the show yet you

1811
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:48,950
have a question for one of our guests I

1812
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:51,290
do there's something I've always

1813
01:24:58,270 --> 01:24:54,050
wondered how they reconcile this

1814
01:24:59,160 --> 01:24:58,280
so if Forrestal cracked and committed

1815
01:25:02,650 --> 01:24:59,170
suicide

1816
01:25:06,220 --> 01:25:02,660
how's that they came to name an aircraft

1817
01:25:08,980 --> 01:25:06,230
carrier after him and one person in the

1818
01:25:10,670 --> 01:25:08,990
chat said it wasn't just an aircraft

1819
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:10,680
carrier

1820
01:25:17,780 --> 01:25:14,770
the it was uh it was the whole class

1821
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:17,790
vote it's right we're named after him

1822
01:25:22,700 --> 01:25:20,800
well I think it's curious how they how

1823
01:25:25,830 --> 01:25:22,710
they could think he cracked up and

1824
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:25,840
suicide if he if they were going to name

1825
01:25:30,090 --> 01:25:28,210
all the boats after him well having a

1826
01:25:33,030 --> 01:25:30,100
nervous breakdown is no reflection on

1827
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:33,040
one's character and mr. Forrestal had

1828
01:25:38,100 --> 01:25:36,010
served his country as Undersecretary of

1829
01:25:40,530 --> 01:25:38,110
the Navy as secretary of Navy and

1830
01:25:42,990 --> 01:25:40,540
wartime and as the head of the

1831
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:43,000
Department of Defense he was a Navy man

1832
01:25:49,470 --> 01:25:45,850
when he was young so it was more than

1833
01:25:52,350 --> 01:25:49,480
appropriate to consider naming the very

1834
01:25:54,450 --> 01:25:52,360
first nuclear aircraft carrier after him

1835
01:25:57,390 --> 01:25:54,460
for that matter even though he never

1836
01:26:00,390 --> 01:25:57,400
graduated from Princeton University he

1837
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:00,400
attended Princeton and left three weeks

1838
01:26:06,810 --> 01:26:02,650
before he's supposed to graduate to join

1839
01:26:08,940 --> 01:26:06,820
the Navy to become a flyer in World War

1840
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:08,950
one but the world ended the war ended

1841
01:26:15,450 --> 01:26:11,760
before he was able to enter the service

1842
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:15,460
so Princeton named a campus after him

1843
01:26:21,930 --> 01:26:17,410
there's a shopping center named after

1844
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:21,940
him in New Jersey a Award in the Defense

1845
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:24,490
Department named after him but these

1846
01:26:29,460 --> 01:26:27,970
things unless you have a relative in the

1847
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:29,470
Navy or work in the intelligence

1848
01:26:33,390 --> 01:26:30,610
community or attended Princeton

1849
01:26:36,330 --> 01:26:33,400
University he has literally been written

1850
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:36,340
out of American history but I understand

1851
01:26:42,510 --> 01:26:40,210
your question but the fact is you know

1852
01:26:46,860 --> 01:26:42,520
having going into a mental state or

1853
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:46,870
having a nervous breakdown is again not

1854
01:26:53,610 --> 01:26:51,310
a reflection on one's character and the

1855
01:26:55,980 --> 01:26:53,620
people who decided to name that carrier

1856
01:26:59,400 --> 01:26:55,990
after him as far as I'm concerned could

1857
01:27:01,440 --> 01:26:59,410
not have made a better choice thank you

1858
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:01,450
for the call curious I mean that seems

1859
01:27:08,190 --> 01:27:04,810
like a PR disaster it's somewhere to go

1860
01:27:09,930 --> 01:27:08,200
realms no well I think anyway in my

1861
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:09,940
opinion this is just my opinion but

1862
01:27:14,970 --> 01:27:12,850
perhaps he made more of a mark in his

1863
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:14,980
life than he did with his death and I

1864
01:27:20,430 --> 01:27:16,810
think that's you know what they're

1865
01:27:23,130 --> 01:27:20,440
remembering him for yeah yeah all right

1866
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:23,140
Stephen thanks a lot now we have another

1867
01:27:26,910 --> 01:27:23,770
caller

1868
01:27:29,790 --> 01:27:26,920
and that is Jim he's calling from

1869
01:27:32,900 --> 01:27:29,800
Ventura California County that is

1870
01:27:37,620 --> 01:27:32,910
California welcome to the show Jim

1871
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:37,630
thanks Martin great show so no doubt

1872
01:27:43,950 --> 01:27:40,210
that mr. Forrestal was privy to a lot of

1873
01:27:47,100 --> 01:27:43,960
information I'm curious why somebody who

1874
01:27:51,390 --> 01:27:47,110
is so high-profile and who was under a

1875
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:51,400
24-hour watch had the time or the

1876
01:27:58,830 --> 01:27:54,570
ability to throw themselves out a window

1877
01:28:00,420 --> 01:27:58,840
well again in the documentary we go

1878
01:28:03,540 --> 01:28:00,430
moment by moment through the

1879
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:03,550
circumstances again nothing about that

1880
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:07,570
makes sense in terms of his hospital

1881
01:28:12,450 --> 01:28:10,330
records the accounts of everybody that's

1882
01:28:15,660 --> 01:28:12,460
been time with him at the Bethesda Naval

1883
01:28:17,490 --> 01:28:15,670
facility the fact that he was very much

1884
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:17,500
looking forward to leaving the facility

1885
01:28:29,930 --> 01:28:23,890
that following morning and then part of

1886
01:28:33,090 --> 01:28:29,940
the the official announcement was that

1887
01:28:35,190 --> 01:28:33,100
he had gone into a profound suicidal

1888
01:28:38,250 --> 01:28:35,200
state of depression as sometimes happens

1889
01:28:41,310 --> 01:28:38,260
with people who otherwise seem that

1890
01:28:46,100 --> 01:28:41,320
they're you know coming out of the

1891
01:28:49,530 --> 01:28:46,110
problem that got them into a facility I

1892
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:49,540
can only say I think your questions will

1893
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:51,730
be answered if you have an opportunity

1894
01:28:57,840 --> 01:28:55,930
to see the documentary I'll definitely

1895
01:29:00,240 --> 01:28:57,850
be seeing the documentary can count on

1896
01:29:03,570 --> 01:29:00,250
that but what I'm alluding to is I

1897
01:29:07,380 --> 01:29:03,580
believe that he had a regular person

1898
01:29:09,690 --> 01:29:07,390
assigned to him to watch him he had some

1899
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:09,700
reason that person was going yes we

1900
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:11,770
addressed that slightly before there

1901
01:29:17,460 --> 01:29:14,650
were actually three Marines assigned to

1902
01:29:21,300 --> 01:29:17,470
guard his physical door in three

1903
01:29:24,150 --> 01:29:21,310
eight-hour shifts every day one of them

1904
01:29:25,740 --> 01:29:24,160
the one who allegedly was drunk that

1905
01:29:27,630 --> 01:29:25,750
night and didn't show up for work the

1906
01:29:29,910 --> 01:29:27,640
night that he went out the window which

1907
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:29,920
i think is an insult to that individual

1908
01:29:35,700 --> 01:29:32,410
and completely incorrect was replaced

1909
01:29:37,530 --> 01:29:35,710
that evening by a hospital orderly who

1910
01:29:42,710 --> 01:29:37,540
had no contact

1911
01:29:51,420 --> 01:29:48,540
background to work this situation and

1912
01:29:54,300 --> 01:29:51,430
who allegedly forgot to lock the door

1913
01:29:58,170 --> 01:29:54,310
after he looked in on him at a quarter

1914
01:30:03,140 --> 01:29:58,180
of 2:00 in the morning it's all a little

1915
01:30:08,910 --> 01:30:03,150
i rolling in terms of the official

1916
01:30:10,530 --> 01:30:08,920
timeline and rationale and there's

1917
01:30:12,660 --> 01:30:10,540
there's evidence of a struggle that took

1918
01:30:14,670 --> 01:30:12,670
place in the room that's another thing

1919
01:30:16,860 --> 01:30:14,680
you know you bring that up Peter

1920
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:16,870
addresses that very well and we covered

1921
01:30:24,870 --> 01:30:20,410
that clearly in the film as well his

1922
01:30:30,480 --> 01:30:24,880
neck the belt around his neck supposedly

1923
01:30:32,700 --> 01:30:30,490
was never tied around the radiatively

1924
01:30:34,530 --> 01:30:32,710
was hanging himself wrong but there's no

1925
01:30:36,630 --> 01:30:34,540
evidence that he actually tied it around

1926
01:30:38,910 --> 01:30:36,640
the radiator you just tied it around his

1927
01:30:41,490 --> 01:30:38,920
neck and then of course it's handprints

1928
01:30:43,860 --> 01:30:41,500
all over the window there's there's

1929
01:30:46,410 --> 01:30:43,870
there's lots of details that don't add

1930
01:30:48,540 --> 01:30:46,420
up when you really read some of the

1931
01:30:50,820 --> 01:30:48,550
newspaper articles and then which Peter

1932
01:30:52,350 --> 01:30:50,830
shares with you in the film well they

1933
01:30:56,220 --> 01:30:52,360
certainly add up but they don't have Rob

1934
01:31:00,210 --> 01:30:56,230
Lee here so you could probably share a

1935
01:31:02,850 --> 01:31:00,220
file with the James McDonald suicide yes

1936
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:02,860
and no McDonald has been a hero of mine

1937
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:06,010
for decades Jim and for anybody that

1938
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:08,290
doesn't know who dr. James McDonald is

1939
01:31:16,890 --> 01:31:14,010
one of the most courageous and impacting

1940
01:31:19,130 --> 01:31:16,900
scientists who made an attempt a

1941
01:31:21,330 --> 01:31:19,140
superhuman attempt to try to bring

1942
01:31:23,730 --> 01:31:21,340
ufology into the world of official

1943
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:23,740
science he was a brilliant atmospheric

1944
01:31:29,910 --> 01:31:27,690
physicist at the University of Arizona

1945
01:31:31,830 --> 01:31:29,920
who became very interested in the

1946
01:31:36,540 --> 01:31:31,840
subject of the UFOs and ultimately the

1947
01:31:40,380 --> 01:31:36,550
cover-up he did die a suicide but one

1948
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:40,390
that I'm convinced the depression the

1949
01:31:46,740 --> 01:31:42,850
deep depression that led him to it was

1950
01:31:51,369 --> 01:31:46,750
exacerbated by the countless attacks by

1951
01:31:53,229 --> 01:31:51,379
Philip Glass who is no longer alive to

1952
01:31:56,529 --> 01:31:53,239
be ashamed of himself for helping drive

1953
01:32:00,000 --> 01:31:56,539
a good man to end his life after he saw

1954
01:32:02,949 --> 01:32:00,010
his career destroyed but allegory

1955
01:32:05,859 --> 01:32:02,959
allegorically at least I think you're

1956
01:32:09,659 --> 01:32:05,869
spot on James both of these men on a

1957
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:09,669
certain sense were martyrs to the cause

1958
01:32:15,580 --> 01:32:11,570
thanks for the call Jeff Thank You

1959
01:32:17,949 --> 01:32:15,590
Brooke all right all right so the lines

1960
01:32:19,509 --> 01:32:17,959
are open if anyone else wants to call in

1961
01:32:22,540 --> 01:32:19,519
that number again is eight five five

1962
01:32:23,859 --> 01:32:22,550
four seven two five four eight three we

1963
01:32:28,750 --> 01:32:23,869
would love to hear from someone over

1964
01:32:30,609 --> 01:32:28,760
listening @kg RA over there these people

1965
01:32:31,929 --> 01:32:30,619
are coming in from the YouTube so we'd

1966
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:31,939
love to hear from someone over there if

1967
01:32:38,259 --> 01:32:35,449
you want to call in as far as going back

1968
01:32:40,989 --> 01:32:38,269
to you know I don't want to harp on

1969
01:32:45,310 --> 01:32:40,999
mj-12 but mj-12 is one of the things I'd

1970
01:32:49,169 --> 01:32:45,320
have a question on has anyone tried to

1971
01:32:52,540 --> 01:32:49,179
get Freedom of Information Act documents

1972
01:32:55,330 --> 01:32:52,550
because I would think that all the time

1973
01:32:57,159 --> 01:32:55,340
that has passed there should be some

1974
01:33:00,339 --> 01:32:57,169
information that would be unclassified

1975
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:00,349
at this point for that as well as James

1976
01:33:05,349 --> 01:33:03,530
Forrestal thing I don't know the people

1977
01:33:11,609 --> 01:33:05,359
to ask and I think they'd be wonderful

1978
01:33:14,229 --> 01:33:11,619
guests for you are Bob and Ryan would

1979
01:33:18,159 --> 01:33:14,239
extraordinary father and son at work

1980
01:33:21,669 --> 01:33:18,169
with us Stan very closely on and off

1981
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:21,679
over the year yeah Bob wood was head of

1982
01:33:26,379 --> 01:33:23,449
research and development at McDonnell

1983
01:33:29,859 --> 01:33:26,389
Douglas as I recall with every security

1984
01:33:32,379 --> 01:33:29,869
clearance imaginable his son inherited

1985
01:33:35,349 --> 01:33:32,389
his interest in this subject and Ryan

1986
01:33:37,270 --> 01:33:35,359
was responsible some years ago for

1987
01:33:39,699 --> 01:33:37,280
producing a brilliant series of

1988
01:33:41,919 --> 01:33:39,709
conferences called the crash retrieval

1989
01:33:47,020 --> 01:33:41,929
conferences which were held annually for

1990
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:47,030
seven years in Las Vegas Nevada it was

1991
01:33:52,149 --> 01:33:49,489
not a conference that necessarily called

1992
01:33:54,489 --> 01:33:52,159
on speakers like myself to address the

1993
01:33:56,349 --> 01:33:54,499
crash retrieval subjects but that was

1994
01:33:58,989 --> 01:33:56,359
the title of the conference but they

1995
01:34:01,239 --> 01:33:58,999
went on to become for me the most

1996
01:34:04,700 --> 01:34:01,249
immersive

1997
01:34:08,210 --> 01:34:04,710
in the mj-12 story which

1998
01:34:10,430 --> 01:34:08,220
um they are a lot more familiar with

1999
01:34:14,900 --> 01:34:10,440
knowledgeable about I don't know whether

2000
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:14,910
Stan maybe Cathy might know Jen ever

2001
01:34:22,250 --> 01:34:18,090
Institute any foyers specifically

2002
01:34:24,770 --> 01:34:22,260
regarding mj-12 again in the very narrow

2003
01:34:26,990 --> 01:34:24,780
focus that I have of this one document

2004
01:34:33,770 --> 01:34:27,000
of eight pages and the accompanying

2005
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:33,780
letter where Truman essentially sends

2006
01:34:39,470 --> 01:34:35,850
Forrestal on his mission in so many

2007
01:34:43,480 --> 01:34:39,480
words to find out what's going on we do

2008
01:34:47,450 --> 01:34:43,490
know that that day that the letter is

2009
01:34:51,110 --> 01:34:47,460
dated that President Truman met in his

2010
01:34:52,460 --> 01:34:51,120
office with Forrestal and dr. Vannevar

2011
01:34:57,200 --> 01:34:52,470
Bush of the research and development

2012
01:35:00,080 --> 01:34:57,210
board and it was the only entry in the

2013
01:35:03,470 --> 01:35:00,090
White House log for six months on either

2014
01:35:10,130 --> 01:35:03,480
side where the president met with only

2015
01:35:12,350 --> 01:35:10,140
those two men mj1 at MJ - I think we're

2016
01:35:14,390 --> 01:35:12,360
and not only that but there is no

2017
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:14,400
indication of the subject that they

2018
01:35:22,970 --> 01:35:19,010
spoke of highly unusual so for me again

2019
01:35:27,890 --> 01:35:22,980
it's not just one dramatic a fact or

2020
01:35:32,230 --> 01:35:27,900
event it's doing what good investigators

2021
01:35:35,420 --> 01:35:32,240
try to do triangulating building a case

2022
01:35:37,670 --> 01:35:35,430
different evidences backing each other

2023
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:37,680
up photographic evidence

2024
01:35:43,220 --> 01:35:40,410
coinciding with documentary evidence

2025
01:35:46,940 --> 01:35:43,230
coinciding with witness testimony

2026
01:35:49,790 --> 01:35:46,950
coinciding with written accounts of the

2027
01:35:53,330 --> 01:35:49,800
time with interviews supporting the X

2028
01:35:56,510 --> 01:35:53,340
number point of view that's the case

2029
01:36:00,230 --> 01:35:56,520
that's how one builds a case and does

2030
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:00,240
ones best to present it to the public

2031
01:36:05,030 --> 01:36:03,450
and you know our viewers will be the

2032
01:36:08,830 --> 01:36:05,040
judge one thing we will make sure of

2033
01:36:11,990 --> 01:36:08,840
Martin is sometime in the next few days

2034
01:36:14,780 --> 01:36:12,000
Jennifer or I are Bob will get a link to

2035
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:14,790
you so that between now and your next

2036
01:36:18,350 --> 01:36:16,800
show at least you will have an

2037
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:18,360
opportunity to watch the

2038
01:36:23,240 --> 01:36:21,449
commentary' in full and if anybody is

2039
01:36:26,209 --> 01:36:23,250
interested in follow up or has questions

2040
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:26,219
for you about it you'll be a lot better

2041
01:36:30,890 --> 01:36:28,290
versed on you know what we're talking

2042
01:36:32,660 --> 01:36:30,900
around here tonight sure and I could

2043
01:36:34,910 --> 01:36:32,670
actually hmm excuse me it could actually

2044
01:36:36,830 --> 01:36:34,920
keep that in the show notes whatever you

2045
01:36:41,030 --> 01:36:36,840
know if there's anything active on that

2046
01:36:43,879 --> 01:36:41,040
be glad to we just we're having a

2047
01:36:46,220 --> 01:36:43,889
technical problem here with the I'm

2048
01:36:50,270 --> 01:36:46,230
trying to figure it out with the phone

2049
01:36:52,459 --> 01:36:50,280
screening page it will sign me out all

2050
01:36:54,740 --> 01:36:52,469
by itself and it's not letting me sign

2051
01:36:57,140 --> 01:36:54,750
back in so I think I think we may have

2052
01:37:00,260 --> 01:36:57,150
to skip calls for the night so if anyone

2053
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:00,270
in chat has questions you're welcome to

2054
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:01,770
post them up I'll try to take a look

2055
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:03,210
over there there's a lot of people

2056
01:37:08,180 --> 01:37:05,610
talking about mj-12 I see on the in the

2057
01:37:11,330 --> 01:37:08,190
chatroom someone posted a few minutes

2058
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:11,340
ago that they thought that the FBI said

2059
01:37:17,209 --> 01:37:13,650
it was a hoax but of course we don't

2060
01:37:19,609 --> 01:37:17,219
always typically believe everything the

2061
01:37:22,070 --> 01:37:19,619
FBI might say or any part of any

2062
01:37:24,649 --> 01:37:22,080
Intelligence Agency as far as I'm

2063
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:24,659
concerned we don't really know

2064
01:37:28,280 --> 01:37:26,610
go ahead you look like you can say

2065
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:28,290
something Jeff yes I wanted to add

2066
01:37:31,790 --> 01:37:29,850
something that Peter didn't really

2067
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:31,800
discuss but I think it's a critical

2068
01:37:37,250 --> 01:37:35,130
turning point in the Forrestal story at

2069
01:37:38,810 --> 01:37:37,260
least it was for me in my understanding

2070
01:37:40,129 --> 01:37:38,820
because you look at the data and you try

2071
01:37:44,770 --> 01:37:40,139
to say well what was it that really

2072
01:37:47,629 --> 01:37:44,780
triggered this onslaught of you know

2073
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:47,639
self-doubt and depression and confusion

2074
01:37:54,140 --> 01:37:51,449
and suicidal behavior if I'm not correct

2075
01:37:55,669 --> 01:37:54,150
Forrestal suggested to the president

2076
01:37:57,160 --> 01:37:55,679
that he might prepare some briefing

2077
01:38:00,649 --> 01:37:57,170
documents for the next administration

2078
01:38:04,399 --> 01:38:00,659
because it looked very well like Dewey

2079
01:38:07,459 --> 01:38:04,409
may have been elected / Truman in an

2080
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:07,469
election that was coming up and he

2081
01:38:13,250 --> 01:38:10,050
suggested that we better prepare and get

2082
01:38:15,290 --> 01:38:13,260
the next administration on board for

2083
01:38:16,820 --> 01:38:15,300
understanding how to deal with the

2084
01:38:19,629 --> 01:38:16,830
situations that they were dealing with

2085
01:38:22,990 --> 01:38:19,639
and I think it's at that point that

2086
01:38:26,300 --> 01:38:23,000
Forrestal was attacked and and told

2087
01:38:29,979 --> 01:38:26,310
absolutely not this stays within our

2088
01:38:32,810 --> 01:38:29,989
administration this days within mj-12

2089
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:32,820
you're very close Jen

2090
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:35,610
in fact right on the money

2091
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:39,090
Forrestal that's had suggested to Robert

2092
01:38:46,610 --> 01:38:42,090
Lovett a protege and future Secretary of

2093
01:38:49,310 --> 01:38:46,620
Defense that because it did look very

2094
01:38:51,229 --> 01:38:49,320
much like governor Dewey of New York was

2095
01:38:53,959 --> 01:38:51,239
going to carry the election for the

2096
01:38:58,130 --> 01:38:53,969
Republicans that might it not make sense

2097
01:39:01,250 --> 01:38:58,140
for somebody from Truman's inner circle

2098
01:39:03,830 --> 01:39:01,260
to interface with somebody from Dewey's

2099
01:39:07,850 --> 01:39:03,840
now it's important to know that this is

2100
01:39:10,100 --> 01:39:07,860
now D rigor this is the way one of the

2101
01:39:11,810 --> 01:39:10,110
things Americans should be proud of we

2102
01:39:15,950 --> 01:39:11,820
have never had a violent change of

2103
01:39:18,500 --> 01:39:15,960
government teams work together when

2104
01:39:22,189 --> 01:39:18,510
there is a change in power and it's

2105
01:39:24,709 --> 01:39:22,199
always done peacefully but in 1949 this

2106
01:39:30,500 --> 01:39:24,719
was not the way it was and simply the

2107
01:39:33,140 --> 01:39:30,510
suggestion that we do something to work

2108
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:33,150
with this candidate who might succeed

2109
01:39:39,350 --> 01:39:37,170
Truman was spun by a number of

2110
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:39,360
individuals very close to Truman who

2111
01:39:44,900 --> 01:39:42,210
were what all is said and done I think

2112
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:44,910
jealous of the closeness that Truman had

2113
01:39:49,430 --> 01:39:47,489
developed with Forrestal and of his

2114
01:39:51,490 --> 01:39:49,440
tremendous admiration for Forrestal

2115
01:39:55,729 --> 01:39:51,500
because of his fine work over the years

2116
01:39:58,340 --> 01:39:55,739
and the the said the saddest aspect here

2117
01:40:00,560 --> 01:39:58,350
is that Truman bought it and believed

2118
01:40:04,459 --> 01:40:00,570
that Forrestal had acted in a disloyal

2119
01:40:06,290 --> 01:40:04,469
way for a man who I think literally

2120
01:40:08,930 --> 01:40:06,300
would have given up his life for either

2121
01:40:11,390 --> 01:40:08,940
President Roosevelt or Truman and

2122
01:40:14,180 --> 01:40:11,400
certainly was as devoted a team member

2123
01:40:16,640 --> 01:40:14,190
as any president of the United States

2124
01:40:18,110 --> 01:40:16,650
has ever had I think this must have been

2125
01:40:21,380 --> 01:40:18,120
not just diss parroting but

2126
01:40:28,939 --> 01:40:21,390
heartbreaking and a cause for tremendous

2127
01:40:30,860 --> 01:40:28,949
self-doubt for Forrestal who well as I

2128
01:40:32,930 --> 01:40:30,870
understand and this may just be my

2129
01:40:37,070 --> 01:40:32,940
speculation Peter and you'll tell me if

2130
01:40:39,260 --> 01:40:37,080
I'm wrong I am sort of with the

2131
01:40:41,060 --> 01:40:39,270
understanding that Forrestal might have

2132
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:41,070
thought this night might not be

2133
01:40:46,010 --> 01:40:43,050
something we want to necessarily keep

2134
01:40:48,290 --> 01:40:46,020
secret because it's going to occur

2135
01:40:51,110 --> 01:40:48,300
a lot of problems down the road if we do

2136
01:40:53,390 --> 01:40:51,120
keep it secret and everyone else in his

2137
01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:53,400
group whether it was the administration

2138
01:40:58,370 --> 01:40:56,730
or mj-12 were in the opinion that they

2139
01:41:00,950 --> 01:40:58,380
didn't know enough yet and when he

2140
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:00,960
absolutely had to keep it secret and I

2141
01:41:05,630 --> 01:41:03,330
think it was when Truman was going out

2142
01:41:07,730 --> 01:41:05,640
of office didn't he give a very or was

2143
01:41:09,650 --> 01:41:07,740
Eisenhower when Eisenhower was going out

2144
01:41:13,490 --> 01:41:09,660
of office he gave him very compelling

2145
01:41:15,020 --> 01:41:13,500
talk as this final you know address to

2146
01:41:18,650 --> 01:41:15,030
the nation where's the

2147
01:41:20,990 --> 01:41:18,660
military-industrial complex oh yes so

2148
01:41:23,450 --> 01:41:21,000
these things are all connected they're

2149
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:23,460
not separate I think that's a very good

2150
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:25,410
observation Jennifer and one that may

2151
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:29,130
well be true yeah yeah I know that that

2152
01:41:34,340 --> 01:41:32,130
speeches still holds very strong today

2153
01:41:36,740 --> 01:41:34,350
doesn't from back home only we had

2154
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:36,750
listened yes so Forrestal might have

2155
01:41:41,270 --> 01:41:38,730
been trying to digest all of this

2156
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:41,280
himself inside his own head how are we

2157
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:43,290
going to go forward you know what are we

2158
01:41:47,300 --> 01:41:44,610
really dealing with and of course

2159
01:41:49,940 --> 01:41:47,310
there's this alleged story that was

2160
01:41:53,060 --> 01:41:49,950
captured in Paul Davis's film we don't

2161
01:41:55,820 --> 01:41:53,070
know whether it's true or not but if an

2162
01:41:57,800 --> 01:41:55,830
alien being survived the Roswell crash

2163
01:42:02,570 --> 01:41:57,810
and was held in an underground facility

2164
01:42:06,710 --> 01:42:02,580
and members of you know the elite you

2165
01:42:10,220 --> 01:42:06,720
know military went to see this being it

2166
01:42:12,110 --> 01:42:10,230
is a supposed or an alleged story that

2167
01:42:15,170 --> 01:42:12,120
the aliens started communicating

2168
01:42:17,540 --> 01:42:15,180
directly with Forrestal and sort of

2169
01:42:19,610 --> 01:42:17,550
overtook his mind and downloaded

2170
01:42:22,940 --> 01:42:19,620
information to him and gave him warnings

2171
01:42:24,620 --> 01:42:22,950
this may have also been part of that but

2172
01:42:27,020 --> 01:42:24,630
that's of course not something we cover

2173
01:42:28,940 --> 01:42:27,030
because it's not clearly documented

2174
01:42:31,370 --> 01:42:28,950
there isn't a piece of smoking-gun

2175
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:31,380
evidence and Peter wanted to stay right

2176
01:42:37,610 --> 01:42:35,370
with the facts yeah any anything your

2177
01:42:39,350 --> 01:42:37,620
that's in this you can go and dig up in

2178
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:39,360
an archive yourself or find in a

2179
01:42:45,230 --> 01:42:42,090
newspaper article so we only have about

2180
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:45,240
one minute just to let you know and so I

2181
01:42:50,930 --> 01:42:48,090
can't believe this show is coming to a

2182
01:42:53,330 --> 01:42:50,940
close so quickly and so you said in

2183
01:42:54,860 --> 01:42:53,340
about a few weeks or so was it you Peter

2184
01:42:57,380 --> 01:42:54,870
that we're saying that this film should

2185
01:42:59,180 --> 01:42:57,390
be available basically online and where

2186
01:42:59,930 --> 01:42:59,190
would someone find it yeah at the

2187
01:43:03,230 --> 01:42:59,940
beginning

2188
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:03,240
certainly to start in the next week or

2189
01:43:10,100 --> 01:43:06,330
two I expect it will be up on the on

2190
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:10,110
wings productions there's a page up now

2191
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:11,970
so that anyone can go to on wings

2192
01:43:17,480 --> 01:43:14,130
productions that's my website so it's Oh

2193
01:43:19,310 --> 01:43:17,490
n WI ng es it's the name of my

2194
01:43:21,380 --> 01:43:19,320
production company so you can go there

2195
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:21,390
and look under projects that I've done

2196
01:43:25,130 --> 01:43:23,370
and there's a page for the James

2197
01:43:27,290 --> 01:43:25,140
Forrestal project so they can read about

2198
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:27,300
it they can learn how to buy a DVD there

2199
01:43:32,750 --> 01:43:29,850
it's to contact Peter Robbins in there

2200
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:32,760
their $20 including shipping and you

2201
01:43:38,300 --> 01:43:35,610
know it's Peters email is there or Peter

2202
01:43:40,250 --> 01:43:38,310
can just give his email right now I

2203
01:43:43,490 --> 01:43:40,260
think it's I think we actually have it

2204
01:43:45,620 --> 01:43:43,500
on your long bio I believe in the show

2205
01:43:48,110 --> 01:43:45,630
notes so anyone can go there alright and

2206
01:43:49,550 --> 01:43:48,120
get it there but things it's um go ahead

2207
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:49,560
some point after that it will be

2208
01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:51,330
available on Amazon or another major

2209
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:53,010
platform I got it

2210
01:43:57,770 --> 01:43:55,410
absolutely had a wonderful time thank

2211
01:43:59,330 --> 01:43:57,780
you so much both of you thank you Mark

2212
01:44:01,040 --> 01:43:59,340
you Mark great seeing you

2213
01:44:05,150 --> 01:44:01,050
alright great seeing you too alright

2214
01:44:08,030 --> 01:44:05,160
everyone so that is it for us and we

2215
01:44:10,670 --> 01:44:08,040
will be back next week we have another

2216
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:10,680
interesting show we have Kathy Martin on

2217
01:44:14,660 --> 01:44:12,930
for the first hour she's gonna be

2218
01:44:17,150 --> 01:44:14,670
talking about her new book then we have

2219
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:17,160
Stacey Wright and Marianne rabe they're

2220
01:44:21,980 --> 01:44:19,890
going to be on from the Phoenix MUFON I

2221
01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:21,990
met them out there they're both really

2222
01:44:25,610 --> 01:44:23,970
nice people and should be a lot of fun

2223
01:44:26,900 --> 01:44:25,620
and I want to thank everyone that helps

2224
01:44:28,630 --> 01:44:26,910
out with the show I want to thank you

2225
01:44:36,190 --> 01:44:28,640
the listener and the supporters and